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What About Cathay Dragon?

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What About Cathay Dragon?

Old 15th Jan 2019, 19:29
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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What About Cathay Dragon?

Hi,
There are many threads and comments about Cathay Pacific, but there is almost not even a word about Cathay Dragon. I wonder how this company is and how they treat their pilots. They seem only in need of First Officers and not Captains, so how is the upgrade process? I would appreciate if anyone can give some information and idea about KA. Many thanks in advance...
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 02:55
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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KA is a wholey owned entity of CX so your only option, as far as I know, is to apply to CX and they will decide whether to feed you into the KA or CX ranks. KA has its own set of issues, albeit not quite as toxic as those in CX, not least of which is that we’re at the complete mercy of the management in CX now and look how happy they’ve made their crew.
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 04:19
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When KA had a 20% pass rate for command upgrade , the training manager ( long gone can’t remember his name - just the ding ding ding ) stated our upgrade course the envy of the industry.

We have our own problems that are often more bizarre than those of our owners .

KA pilots have storm clouds ahead not worth the D scale contract . Unless they are sons or daughters of current B scalers who can live with M & D and have a guided career . 😐

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 17th Jan 2019 at 06:43.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 05:00
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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I remember when I joined KA, the saying was "it is the worst best paid job in the world".
Then came standard Contract with the loss of expat benefits and recently COS 18 dropping the pay scale.

Kaplan, most of what you read for CX is valid for KA as well,
Forget a quick upgrade, there were no Command course for at least 6 months and more FOs are leaving than joining.
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Old 21st Jan 2019, 13:42
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Can anyone shed some light on what to expect in the initial Skype interview with KA?

Thanks!
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 00:22
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Most likely an explanation of ‘why’ you are prepared to accept POS18

Originally Posted by VarigMD11 View Post
Can anyone shed some light on what to expect in the initial Skype interview with KA?

Thanks!
KA is not the airline it used to be in terms of pilot benefits. When standard COS came out, a DEFO would make about HK$1.0M, now, a COS18 DEFO can expect to make about HK$700,000 which after inflation is just over half the value assuming you reach all productivity targets (and don’t get sick) that they can change without your consent.

My guess is they will want to know why you would accept such a crappy deal given the astronomical cost of living in HK. Do not convert the salary into your home currency and get excited, this salary is enough to survive but if you have more than one kid you will be going backwards financially and not gaining seniority at a career airline.

once you get a command you also don’t get annual increments any more, instead you get increments each 3000 hours in a KA LHS.

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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 00:49
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Around 25 A320 commands this year , so I hear from the DB plaza. Zero A330. But this is whats planned , things change with the odd early retirement and inevitable resignations,

KA now prefer single , male candidates in their late 20’s, who can sow their seed in the local community.

The traditional preferred recruitment areas of Australia, NZ, UK have been expanded of late to include former Eastern European states and South Africa. We hear that India could be an area to include for future pilot demand .

Its not so bad here, the pilot retention rate speaks volumes. However, if you are a home boy.& you yearn for the girl next door, then you come for the rating and scarper after 500 hours. No bond to pay.

If you want to meet your Asian sweetheart and suck on fried tofu with mon & pap , you could have a long career ahead of you at CXDragon.
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Old 22nd Jan 2019, 20:50
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India maybe on KA's list of places to recruit but just bare in mind that when CX thought they could recruit unlimited numbers from Pakistan a few years back they feel flat on their faces. Pakistanis saw the package, converted it to P.Rupees and thought...Great. Then they did their homework and realised what they where currently getting at home gave them a much, much better standard of living and to my knowledge not one Pakistani was recruited.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:41
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South African DEFOs are joining every month, clearly COS18 suits them.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:59
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Originally Posted by Avinthenews View Post
South African DEFOs are joining every month, clearly COS18 suits them.
Incorrect. None have joined on CoS18. Emirates is now preferred.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 03:46
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COS18 is the Cathay group so while not flying for Dragon they can, they are currently being put on CX but can end up anywhere in the future
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 04:14
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Originally Posted by Avinthenews View Post
COS18 is the Cathay group so while not flying for Dragon they can, they are currently being put on CX but can end up anywhere in the future
OK but the thread was about Red, get the point about group. I predict they will get joiners who will either come just for the type rating or come and then realize that what we say about HK being so expensive is true. Either way they will only stay a couple of years.
CD is currently stagnant with more leavers than joiners. FOs can’t be released for command as there are no DEFOs.
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 20:55
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I thank everyone so much for the info about KA.
I still have 2 questios on my mind:
1-What are the projected and real upgrade times if you have enough hours for the left seat?
2-What is the REAL salary per month if you fly at normal pace? I wonder how this COS18 made the difference compared to previous years.
I appreciate if somebody can enlight us.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 09:34
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In all honesty, no-one can tell you what to do, as you are not really listening. My sincere suggestion is just come and interview and find out... or don’t. If you come, don’t just be “nice” to get the job, air your concerns, ask your questions and make a proper decision YOURSELF. You have already gained what value anyone can glean from PPRuNe.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 10:50
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I would suggest the era of quick commands is now over. KA have around 40 pilots waiting for command courses who have already passed PCA. Anybody joining today will probably have to wait 7-8 years for a command as many of us had to. Lots of cadets with the hours for command now and of course the majority have no plans to eventually leave Hong Kong like the expats. No commands this year so far and just two vacancies advertised recently on the 330 which will either go to senior 320 Captains or senior 320/330 FOs should they decide to bid.

Be very careful about joining on COS18 is all I would say. Without a quick command it probably won't be worth it unless you are single, no kids and have no plans to change that situation.

Take home for a Year 1 FO on COS18? Nobody really knows as we are all either Expat B or Standard Contract so no point in giving you those figures as you will almost certainly be earning less than anybody already here. I wouldn't recommend COS18 to ANYBODY. Hong Kong is extremely expensive. In my personal opinion it isn't worth coming here anymore, unless you just want the rating and plan to move on after 500-1000 hours.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 02:35
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Originally Posted by kaplan192 View Post
I thank everyone so much for the info about KA.
I still have 2 questios on my mind:
1-What are the projected and real upgrade times if you have enough hours for the left seat?
2-What is the REAL salary per month if you fly at normal pace? I wonder how this COS18 made the difference compared to previous years.
I appreciate if somebody can enlight us.
This is not about KA. It's about the contract. The contract is the veritable "Only come if you have to " .

Please have a serious think about that! And KA is a high standard, high stress airline. If you are going to get paid peanuts, go somewhere where you aren't in the manuals constantly and jumping at your own shadow due fear of standards or standards bullying.

Upgrade times? How long is a piece of string? There are hundreds ahead of you and no expansion planned. There's actually an uncertain future so I would not come here on the premise of a KA command. The future is unclear.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 5th Mar 2019 at 02:52.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 22:47
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Don't believe what you are told during recruitment phase. So go by what pilots tell you, not the company.

At CX the FOP recruitment department quit (head went to QF) as they were being asked the impossible, so recruitment is now done by the People department. FOP recruitment used to tell lies - ie basings are an option. People have taken the lying to another level ie SO upgrade time is less than 2 years (it is currently > 5 years) and basings are an option.
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Old 5th Mar 2019, 23:37
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Devil

Originally Posted by kaplan192 View Post
I thank everyone so much for the info about KA.
I still have 2 questios on my mind:
1-What are the projected and real upgrade times if you have enough hours for the left seat?
2-What is the REAL salary per month if you fly at normal pace? I wonder how this COS18 made the difference compared to previous years.
I appreciate if somebody can enlight us.
When I joined, it was many years to command, then all of a sudden things started moving and for some it dropped to 9 months (with STC time on type). Last year they just stopped commands for no apparent reason... there was a forecast for 60 IIRC but that ended up being about 10 before the stoppage. Since then about 40 FO's have been through the pre-command assessments and are waiting for courses that were due to start in February but have now been delayed til the end of the year. For anyone joining now, I would say at least 5 years

A COS 12 FO can average about 100K per month gross, we don't exactly know for a COS18 FO because no one has been silly enough to accept such crap. I would estimate around 70K if you fly 75 hours a month; however, don't think that is easy, you will be doing 4 day integrated patterns in China with blank days in a hotel that net 8 credit hours in total with early/late switching then you'll get smashed with a Medan return red-eye flight for 8 hours and be wrecked. If you call sick or if a flight gets upgraded to a 330 or downgraded to a 320 you get the shaft and don't get credit, and remember, its only the last few hours of productivity that make the money so if you do the average hours, which is more like 60-65 you could be down to the likes of 50K gross.

Out of that, take tax 12% for what you're earning now plus 12% for next years bill that you may or may not get in year one.. some are lucky to get it in year two, its random. Then rent in the mid 20K's for something small in DB or TC or 30-40K in town. If you have a family add 20K to those numbers for a 3 bedroom place.

Don't take my word for the cash as its estimated based on the contract, if you are desperate enough to show up for the interview, have a look at the contract and see for yourself at all the ways they can change your pay. If there is a slow-down in flying, you will have a massive pay cut of up to 40%, but don't worry, you'll have less tax to pay
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Old 6th Mar 2019, 15:08
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Join Date: Oct 1999
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Danger

Don't bother!, plenty of FO's waiting for upgrade but lack of new FO's to replace them due COS18 which has brought muppets to interviews rather than pilots, so every seat is short staffed and there is zero movement.. Oh and now they just ruined the commute roster lifestyle requests of red eyes before or after leave....
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Old 7th Mar 2019, 10:32
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“If there is a slowdown in flying”

Unlikely if you are on COS 18. You will be cheaper to employ than any other pilot in the company. Therefore those in the future employed on COS18 contracts will be guaranteed high hours as they are such a big saving over Standard Contract and B scale FO’s.

Once there is a sizable number of COS18 pilots, the incumbent crews will see their hours ring fenced below
any overtime threashold or even to keep them under the higher HDP rates.

Fine by me , please come all yee COS 18 wannabes, the grass is greener here
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