Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Is a 0% pay rise really acceptable?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Is a 0% pay rise really acceptable?

Old 9th Dec 2018, 01:29
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 5
Is a 0% pay rise really acceptable?

So the coffers are filling up, 13 month is being paid and it’s 3% increase for ground staff and cabin crew after minimal negotiations.

However it’s 0% increase for the pilots who are clearly not part of the effort to restore the company to profitability.

So before we sign up to an inferior deal thrust upon us in the coming weeks, with no pay rise, shouldn’t we ask ourselves whether this is acceptable in any shape or form?

Our new DFO is already bragging in the SCMP that the deal is done and we’re going to sign. The smugness oozing from his weekly missives is no less nauseating.

Our we really going to hand him such an easy victory and enhance his ego in return for nothing?
Airblast is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 12:08
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: I go, therefore I am there!
Posts: 182
Logic would say to at least wait and see what is on offer. However, based on what is expected, any yes vote would be nothing more than capitulation and precisely at a time when the company is returning to profit. To sign away the right to industrial reciprocity would be madness piled on top of the surrender.
arse is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 16:19
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Southwater
Age: 69
Posts: 520
Surely, a 0% "pay "rise" is in effect a pay cut given even low inflation figures.
RedhillPhil is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 20:03
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: hong kong
Posts: 15
How many years, so far, have we been accepting 0% pay rises; or as RHP put's it, 'pay cuts in line with inflation'? Its been so many years now, that I've forgotten how many years it actually is. Can somebody please remind me?
badge42 is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 20:06
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: hong kong
Posts: 15
I'd like to add another question. If any of the historians can remember if we EVER had a pay rise in line with inflation? Ever?!
badge42 is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 21:24
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,642
Originally Posted by badge42 View Post
I'd like to add another question. If any of the historians can remember if we EVER had a pay rise in line with inflation? Ever?!
It depends on which version of 'inflation' you believe.
If you accept the manipulated, revised and altered version pumped out by government statistics, then possibly you have.

If however, one uses the real rate of inflation, then it is highly improbable that your salary increments ever even got close.

By design the corporates love the 'official' rate, it keeps wage pressure down. Precisely why real wages have fallen for most a decade.
Rated De is online now  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 04:16
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 155
If however, one uses the real rate of inflation, then it is highly improbable that your salary increments ever even got close.
Pay raises are the inflation adjustment, not salary Increments.
mr did is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 08:16
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 696
Originally Posted by badge42 View Post
I'd like to add another question. If any of the historians can remember if we EVER had a pay rise in line with inflation? Ever?!
Back in the good old days, when men dressed like women, and women had big hair & shoulder pads. The 80's. Helped by a spot of unpleasantness in Beijing that resulted in a lot of professionals looking to leave HK
Freehills is online now  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 09:44
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Can we please stop referring to salary increments in the same discussion as pay adjustments.
Salary increments were a concession to the company in the early days to allow for lower wage bills during start-up, expansion, etc. Any manager who tries to tell you otherwise is being deceitful.

In addition it might be useful to emphasise the word "adjustments" when discussing salary increases because its been a long time since any increase in the numerical size of our salaries has affected an increase in the actual buying power and hence value of those salaries.

Last edited by Busbuoy; 11th Dec 2018 at 21:38. Reason: Grammar
Busbuoy is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 11:11
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 749
No, “0” percent is not acceptable (in fact, even 5% would barely be acceptable). Anyone who votes for “0” deserves the career they will get.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 08:29
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 749
Further, Merlin Swire was just featured in a local newspaper toasting CX’s improved results with a glass of champagne. Anyone who votes for anything other than a suitable contract (payrise, rp’s, bases) is a fool who would willingly throw away their futures. You would deserve the misery you would then experience. Hold our managements feet to the fire and demonstrate that you are deserving of a proper career with proper pqy and benefits.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 11:06
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 38
Forget asking when was the last time you got a payrise comparable with inflation.

I recently flew with a management pilot who was bragging the HKAOA was going to sign away CC/TB for the promise of 1%. He was p!ssing himself with laughter.

So the question you should be asking is when was the last time the HKAOA got a pay rise without the threat of CC? I think the answer is mid-2000 when the Company unilaterally awarded between 0-3% following failed pay talks. The next pay deal was 2010 which was only achieved following the members (not the GC) threatening CC. Then we had AT imposing a pay rise in late 2014 to try and buy us out of CC. Then we had another 2 year pay deal in 2015 to get us out of CC.

The facts cannot be disputed. In the past 12 years, no CC = no pay rise. Another fact, once B scale arrived, A Scale never received another pay rise. So for all the LEPs who might be tempted to sign away CC/TB for the promise of 1% and a few thousand of HKPA, you can kiss goodbye to ever receiving another payrise. For those who have in their COS that P'Fund is as per company policy, the only thing standing between you and elements of COS18, like $1800 per month P fund is "hope".

Time to think very carefully.

Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 11th Dec 2018 at 13:01.
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 23:24
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 747
Very succinct Liam. It is absurd to think that we would sign away the remaining leverage we have for "1%". In fact, it would ensure that the current "B" scalers would certainly see themselves heading for a COX 18 set of terms and conditions. At least with CC and the TB, we have an effective tool to frustrate the company, especially considering that the company's economic situation is now turning positive (cue picture of Merlin Swire with glass of champagne...). Don't throw away your only tool right at the point that the company desperately needs us to suspend our action. They need us more than we need them, and they are hoping to bluff us into submission one last time. Don't fall for it. If we sign away our ability to engage the company in industrial action, we will have put the last nail in the coffin of our careers. We've come this far, and there is no point in turning back from the summit when we are so near the top.
Air Profit is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 00:44
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
We've come this far, and there is no point in turning back from the summit when we are so near the top.
Seen the movie Everest? Maybe we should wait and see what the deal is before continuing on a suicide mission? After all this thread about 13th month turned out to be just another rumour with zero truth...
cpapilot81 is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 03:27
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 956
Wait for the "personal appeal" letter in your CMB soon. The jellyfish will try to reason with you on a "personal" basis, invoking (possibly) your family, kids, vague undertakings regarding home port bases, suggesting fleet transfers, or whatever it takes to sucker you into an acceptance of "the offer".
Don't fall for it. They are as dishonest as the day is long. It's a trap. They're screwed without cc and tb gone. Stay the course.
Cpt. Underpants is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 03:40
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by Cpt. Underpants View Post
Wait for the "personal appeal" letter in your CMB soon. The jellyfish will try to reason with you on a "personal" basis, invoking (possibly) your family, kids, vague undertakings regarding home port bases, suggesting fleet transfers, or whatever it takes to sucker you into an acceptance of "the offer".
Don't fall for it. They are as dishonest as the day is long. It's a trap. They're screwed without cc and tb gone. Stay the course.
Well said.

CC and TB is the only leverage we have and it is in place and working and free of GC interference. It is the "backstop" that will force the compnays hand. If they offer a deal which we can accept ( 3% minimum ) then the "backstop" stays in place until goodwill is shown by the company and it can then be revoked by a vote.
Our Dragonair buddies were suckered into a 0% increase and the pressure will be on CX to achieve the same but as we are repeatedly told in any negotiations our sister compnays pay grades aren't relevant to CX scales so their 0% increase is irrelevant too.

If it comes to a vote VOTE NO. The worst they can do is impose a 3% pay rise.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 04:08
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
You are walking in the desert and come across a bridge across a ravine you must cross. At the entrance sits an old rattle snake surrounded by dead corpses. "Throw your gun over the bridge and I will let you pass" says the snake. You look over the bridge and see a pile of pistols and rifles laying on the ground. Then you look back at the the pile of dead bodies surrounding the snake.

Here are your options:

A) Trust the snake and throw your gun over the bridge.
B) Try to negotiate with the snake.
C) Shoot the snake.

It ain't rocket science. VOTE NO.

VOTE NO and shoot the snake.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 04:43
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 629
Liam G

Originally Posted by Liam Gallagher View Post
Forget asking when was the last time you got a payrise comparable with inflation.

I recently flew with a management pilot who was bragging the HKAOA was going to sign away CC/TB for the promise of 1%. He was p!ssing himself with laughter.

So the question you should be asking is when was the last time the HKAOA got a pay rise without the threat of CC? I think the answer is mid-2000 when the Company unilaterally awarded between 0-3% following failed pay talks. The next pay deal was 2010 which was only achieved following the members (not the GC) threatening CC. Then we had AT imposing a pay rise in late 2014 to try and buy us out of CC. Then we had another 2 year pay deal in 2015 to get us out of CC.

The facts cannot be disputed. In the past 12 years, no CC = no pay rise. Another fact, once B scale arrived, A Scale never received another pay rise. So for all the LEPs who might be tempted to sign away CC/TB for the promise of 1% and a few thousand of HKPA, you can kiss goodbye to ever receiving another payrise. For those who have in their COS that P'Fund is as per company policy, the only thing standing between you and elements of COS18, like $1800 per month P fund is "hope".

Time to think very carefully.

LIam I like reading your posts though I often disagree with you here and IRL. But I just wanted to correct you on a couple of things.

1) I call 100% bullshit on you "recently flew with a management pilot" - you haven't. But please contact me or PM here if you wish to prove me wrong.
2) A scale got payrises in 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996. So saying that there were no more payrises after the introduction of B scales is factually incorrect.

I don't mind that you want to keep saying over and over that the sky is falling. But don't make up 'facts' like unitedabx and his secret recordings.

Liam G by my best guess your views are representative of about 20% of the membership so they are relevant as that is a significant minority. But argue on the merits and facts - don't make up bullshit - doing that just says you aren't very confident of your argument swaying people.
Numero Crunchero is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 06:49
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 239
Numero Crunchero - I agree with you that even on a “rumour “ network you should not make stuff up. However, with the complete Comms vacuum from the HKAOA, you really cannot blame Liam ,or anyone else , for having a guess at what is going on in your secret negotiations with the Company. Have they offered 0 per cent, 1 per cent, 3 per cent, or 5 per cent pay rise? I have heard all those figures suggested to me as fact in the last two weeks. Tell us what is going on, like will I be able to renew my lease next year under ARAPA, or expect more rubbish to be posted here:
kenfoggo is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 08:39
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: planet ****witt
Age: 33
Posts: 36
Well I hope it is more than 5% as that was in the last failed TA. If you include no pay increase for the last 3 years of CC then we should see something in the order of an 11-15 % pay increase.

If not I'm sure there are more than 20% of the membership who will see this deal for what it is and vote it down. If we ever get to see it that is.
reazasassain is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.