Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

13th Month

Old 5th Dec 2018, 05:33
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 51
Rat Management you really think the HKPA guys/gals are the ones that are going to vote it through?? For an HKPA offer lower then TA16? Think we need to look at who actually stands to benefit if it gets voted through.
Brokeidiot is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 06:14
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 163
Umm they wont negotiate individual contracts they will just lump us all together on the cheapest pice of crap and wheel it out with sign it.....do u even understand how a union works?
Scoreboard is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 07:44
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Expensive Shoebox
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by Brokeidiot View Post
Rat Management you really think the HKPA guys/gals are the ones that are going to vote it through?? For an HKPA offer lower then TA16? Think we need to look at who actually stands to benefit if it gets voted through.
Of course they will vote yes. They are looking for an upgrade, hence they will vote yes to lift the ban and have a go at an overdue JFO course. Can't expect them not to look at the bigger picture.
Backupnav is online now  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 13:08
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: underground
Posts: 94
All this new pay deal tells us is that our association leaders didnít have a pan ĎBí should they be offered a sub standard lower deal. They are passing the buck to us. Or are unwilling to implement it.

Therefore there should be a vote in the first instance to decide whether this new sub standard pay deal should actually be put to a vote. A vote on whether to allow a vote on this lower offer, if anything, as that would be the truest democratic action to allow the pilot body to really speak out before any rash moves - all that needs to be said is itís less or more than TA16. After all why allow our association to embarrass itself by allowing a sub standard deal to be presented to its members. If itís to show goodwill to the company this is in contravention of its own CC policy.

As we all previously agreed TA16 was inadequate why on earth would we vote for something less? If the pay deal was inadequate surely we should be looking into the next affirmative action. Holding the CC, and TB until the company is in a position to offer us a better deal or something else? 3 years on why give up now?
baggagecart is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 08:49
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The sky
Posts: 144
Good news is we get a 13th month,
Bad news is the Jellyfish cant even call it a pay deal, its a pay ARRANGEMENT!
What a joke.
Natca is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:24
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Salaries section has already confirmed NO 13th month this year for CX pilots. KA of course will get theirs.

Well done you just proved yourself a moron again
Jnr380 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 10:43
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 38
Has the DFO gone off a bit premature?

Isn't 13th month normally announced by a grown-up? I think it's normally the CEO backed up by a message from Director People about the local staff pay award. Then the DFO normally chimes in last to thank everyone and wish them well over Xmas and remind us not to fk up over Xmas as all the grown-ups are overseas enjoying Xmas. Perhaps the DFO is being a bit premature... (Not the first time I suspect...fnarr..fnarr).

Speaking of premature, I guess he will be correct eventually, a deal will be put up for a vote. He's been saying it from day one, but I don't think anyone's going to vote for a "Pay Arrangement". They might vote for a pay deal as that probably involves a pay rise. A pay arrangement probably involves a tray of pineapples.

Meanwhile the GC amends the P&P manual... Nice one boys...line up those deckchairs with the tip of the iceberg.
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 23:30
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 488
Good to see we have got our 13th month, means we can all stop taking extra fuel, time to win! (Takes cover..)
Oasis is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 00:29
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 300
haha, well based on an article by the scmp all that will continue as pilots will once again be the only ones to not receive a pay rise, not even an inflationary adjustment
TurningFinalRWY36 is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 16:42
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: HK
Posts: 39
So all the older guys say CX traded 13th month for extra pay per month about 20 years ago.
If true you lot are asking for a 14th month, thatís a bit rich
landrecovery is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 23:17
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Incorrect LR. When they did the salaries for bases they were done to include 13th month, not in HK. Hence based Pilotís donít get it!
Loopdeloop is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 23:34
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 513
Incrediably misleading and dishonest, in that the incorporation of the 13th month bonus into the based pilotís pay occurred in combination with a 25% cut in pay. Which in effect turned the 25% pay cut into a 35% pay cut.

We were told that we must accept a 25% pay cut and, whatís more, the pay cut will forever include your 13th month annual bonus.

It was a further kick in the pants while you were down....forcing you to accept a pay cut, and in the same breath telling you the pay cut included your annual bonus.

Such class....
raven11 is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 02:00
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
A few clarifications

The following applies to Basings Mk2 circa late 1994.
Initially 13th month was paid to based crew. The pay scales were established using the conversion rate of the day and paid in base currency thereafter.
13th month was incorporated into base salary scales from July 1999 and a half 13th month paid December 1999. This no doubt coincided with the attack on A scales in Apr 1999 which saw variable reductions from approx 8.5% in HKG to 35% in AUS. While the company no doubt spun the line that the different rates reflected the net buying power of individual bases (Australia enjoyed a very favourable tax rate at the time and cost of living was lower) the rates actually reflected what the company "thought it could get away with" - AS IT ALWAYS DOES!
From then on individual bases have received both global pay rises and base specific rises so the rates can't be read directly across any more.
What is important is that the threat of withholding of 13th from based pilots has not been available to the company for nearly 20 years.
Only the based crew scales were affected this way, HKG CoS retained 13th month.
As a side note my hazy recollection of the mention by managers various over time of withholding 13th month was that as it was a HKG employment custom, discretion would only be exercised if paying it would effectively render the company insolvent. The recent withholding of it, particularly in the targeted fashion it was withheld can only be viewed as punitive. The "there is not enough money in the pot" argument is specious and deceitful. If there is "enough money in the pot" for managerial bonuses or pay rises to other employee groups there is "enough money in the pot" to honour basic salary commitments to all employee groups. This kind of action should never be allowed to go unaddressed.

There are plenty of things to argue about, lets make sure we argue about the same things and the right things.

Last edited by Busbuoy; 10th Dec 2018 at 02:18. Reason: Grammar
Busbuoy is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 10:56
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: HKG 'visitor'
Posts: 280
Originally Posted by Busbuoy View Post
The following applies to Basings Mk2 circa late 1994.
Initially 13th month was paid to based crew. The pay scales were established using the conversion rate of the day and paid in base currency thereafter.
13th month was incorporated into base salary scales from July 1999 and a half 13th month paid December 1999. This no doubt coincided with the attack on A scales in Apr 1999 which saw variable reductions from approx 8.5% in HKG to 35% in AUS. While the company no doubt spun the line that the different rates reflected the net buying power of individual bases (Australia enjoyed a very favourable tax rate at the time and cost of living was lower) the rates actually reflected what the company "thought it could get away with" - AS IT ALWAYS DOES!
From then on individual bases have received both global pay rises and base specific rises so the rates can't be read directly across any more.
What is important is that the threat of withholding of 13th from based pilots has not been available to the company for nearly 20 years.
Only the based crew scales were affected this way, HKG CoS retained 13th month.
As a side note my hazy recollection of the mention by managers various over time of withholding 13th month was that as it was a HKG employment custom, discretion would only be exercised if paying it would effectively render the company insolvent. The recent withholding of it, particularly in the targeted fashion it was withheld can only be viewed as punitive. The "there is not enough money in the pot" argument is specious and deceitful. If there is "enough money in the pot" for managerial bonuses or pay rises to other employee groups there is "enough money in the pot" to honour basic salary commitments to all employee groups. This kind of action should never be allowed to go unaddressed.

There are plenty of things to argue about, lets make sure we argue about the same things and the right things.
I think you got that right Busboy. And don't forget the killing the company made on getting people to opt out of the A Scale[defined benefit] retirement fund to go on a base. And then inserting the pineapple.
Old times, but as Mark Twain said " History doesn't repeat, but it sure does rhyme"......
spleener is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.