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New York Super Base Cancelled

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

New York Super Base Cancelled

Old 28th Aug 2018, 14:35
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Who hears that little voice inside their head saying "escape now while you still can"...? The best hiring environment in aviation history won't last forever. Every month more of your colleagues are securing their places on the seniority lists of major airlines back home. The door will soon start to close, and you, your families and your career hopes will be trapped with CX, a CX that is demonstrating daily they have no regard for any aspect of a proper career, your health or your financial well-being. It really is time to leave. This is just the latest example as to why.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 15:32
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So the Korean Air 8 days off plus 3 days of leave and "up to" 3 travel days might become competitive after all.

And that is how low CX has dropped.
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 17:52
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You can be certain they will drop lower still
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 19:49
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Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
Who hears that little voice inside their head saying "escape now while you still can"...? The best hiring environment in aviation history won't last forever. Every month more of your colleagues are securing their places on the seniority lists of major airlines back home. The door will soon start to close, and you, your families and your career hopes will be trapped with CX, a CX that is demonstrating daily they have no regard for any aspect of a proper career, your health or your financial well-being. It really is time to leave. This is just the latest example as to why.
Post after post we hear about how duplicitous and grasping the Swine scum are... but perhaps it’s worth turning the mirror the other way, if only for balance. Repeatedly we read the likes of mgmt mole, Trafalgar, Flexv88 et al decrying CX as venal, abusive, contract breaking liars, sentiments I for one wholeheartedly agree with... but...

If Hong Kong is so poisonous, the contract for your family and kids so onerous, the medical situation so paltry, the environment actually reducing you, your families and your cohorts IQ by recent reports, what sort of person are you to keep putting up with it for the sake of an extra two bits of tinsel on the shoulder, for the sake of money, which you decry so loudly against the Swines? Literally the only time EVER the Company has given in is when, after strike action was voted for and the brown envelopes detailing the requisite action had been distributed, Mike Hardy marched into the HKAOA meeting and gave us everything we asked for and a bit more. Until you stop whining like bitches and actually show some grit and determination they’ll piss on you every time. Our late ‘80s crowd, despite being almost exclusively ex military were willing to put everything on the line for a fair settlement... what the f*uck is the matter with you?
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 21:10
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Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post


Post after post we hear about how duplicitous and grasping the Swine scum are... but perhaps it’s worth turning the mirror the other way, if only for balance. Repeatedly we read the likes of mgmt mole, Trafalgar, Flexv88 et al decrying CX as venal, abusive, contract breaking liars, sentiments I for one wholeheartedly agree with... but...

If Hong Kong is so poisonous, the contract for your family and kids so onerous, the medical situation so paltry, the environment actually reducing you, your families and your cohorts IQ by recent reports, what sort of person are you to keep putting up with it for the sake of an extra two bits of tinsel on the shoulder, for the sake of money, which you decry so loudly against the Swines? Literally the only time EVER the Company has given in is when, after strike action was voted for and the brown envelopes detailing the requisite action had been distributed, Mike Hardy marched into the HKAOA meeting and gave us everything we asked for and a bit more. Until you stop whining like bitches and actually show some grit and determination they’ll piss on you every time. Our late ‘80s crowd, despite being almost exclusively ex military were willing to put everything on the line for a fair settlement... what the f*uck is the matter with you?
Now there is a voice with some sense!
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Old 28th Aug 2018, 22:14
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Valid point.....

Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post


Post after post we hear about how duplicitous and grasping the Swine scum are... but perhaps it’s worth turning the mirror the other way, if only for balance. Repeatedly we read the likes of mgmt mole, Trafalgar, Flexv88 et al decrying CX as venal, abusive, contract breaking liars, sentiments I for one wholeheartedly agree with... but...

If Hong Kong is so poisonous, the contract for your family and kids so onerous, the medical situation so paltry, the environment actually reducing you, your families and your cohorts IQ by recent reports, what sort of person are you to keep putting up with it for the sake of an extra two bits of tinsel on the shoulder, for the sake of money, which you decry so loudly against the Swines? Literally the only time EVER the Company has given in is when, after strike action was voted for and the brown envelopes detailing the requisite action had been distributed, Mike Hardy marched into the HKAOA meeting and gave us everything we asked for and a bit more. Until you stop whining like bitches and actually show some grit and determination they’ll piss on you every time. Our late ‘80s crowd, despite being almost exclusively ex military were willing to put everything on the line for a fair settlement... what the f*uck is the matter with you?
Can this be added to every thread on the Fragrant Harbour forum?

+1 from me
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 01:14
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Some valid and sincere comments. However, don't over emphasise the lessons and opinions that are stated. The days of Mike Hardy are well and truly part of the far distant past. Yes, we put up a strong, united stance and both the Swires and our DFO agreed to back down and award a very nice increase in our salary. However, that was when we were a concentrated, undivided group.

Now, in the present day, we have a multitude of bases, local pilots, local competitors, a much younger and less experienced body of aircrew, and most importantly, a management that emotionally, mentally and institutionally LOATHES every single one of us. They have somehow convinced themselves that we (the pilots) are responsible for every single ill that effects CX. They have grown obese and mentally deranged in their personal avarice, and have lost all sight of perspective, morality and fairness.

Mike Hardy was a decent, respected and FAIR DFO, who truly appreciated the efforts and sacrifices of his hard working aircrew. The Swires in London also had the same overall opinion of all of us (I remember when a Captain could call up Swire House in London and attend the weekly board meeting, as an honoured guest). Now, we have a management that is self-centered, venal and utterly devoted in seeing our profession crushed. The ironic thing is that mindless animosity and hatred towards our profession is actually bringing down the very airline they own. It is tragic in every sense of the word. We are a LONG way from the days of Mike Hardy, and every single pilot here needs to realise that the glorious reputation of CX, which was attained by the hard work, sacrifice and devotion of thousands of pilots and their families since the 1940's is no longer. You might as well be working for Hainan Airlines or RyanAir. Ultimately, the only hope of a stable, rewarding and prosperous career is with a legacy carrier back home. Do NOT doubt that.

Those carriers have already worked their way through their "low cost" era, and most have realised that you must treat your employees properly. CX will probably never reach that point. In fact, they will probably spiral down into a business case study of how to ruin a once proud and successful carrier, much like PanAm did. If you are 45 or under, get out NOW. You will bitterly (and I mean that in every sense of the word) regret staying here, and not only ruining your own career, but most likely damaging your family, their health and their hopes. Get out while you have the advantage of the most incredible hiring environment in aviation history. Simple question to all? Do any of you see ONE piece of evidence that CX comprehends our issues, and more importantly, is willing to fix them? No, instead, they come up with even more draconian "sickness" policies and a CMP that will make our lives even more unlivable.

No housing, no suitable medical, no appreciation of the cost of education, no proper pension, nothing. They are driving every single aspect of our careers into the toilet. Leave now while you can still have a good, stable career back home. Stay, and you will most certainly, and bitterly, regret it. Traf.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 01:29
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To Traf's point. There are an ever increasing number of high seniority pilots resigning to join other airlines. Considering first world legacy airlines, would you EVER see that? No, you wouldn't. In just the past few months, two friends just left to join another carrier. One had 11 years here (about to start command), and the other was here 20 years (on a base, and would not return to HK for a command, as he didn't want to mess up his family). When you have 31 years of experience leaving to start at the bottom (although both will have commands inside of three years at their new carriers), you know this airline is broken and probably terminally so. Don't be the last one out the door. As Traf said, this airline is spiraling down to destruction. Every (EVERY) sign demonstrates that FACT. Tragic indeed.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 05:36
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Holy crap!
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 05:46
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
.
. You might as well be working for Hainan Airlines or RyanAir. Ultimately, the only hope of a stable, rewarding and prosperous career is with a legacy carrier back home. Do NOT doubt that.
Traf.
Think you are a bit behind the times. An LCC back home is now a decent alternative
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 09:43
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Every sngle post in this thread could be a copy and paste from 5 years ago.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 10:55
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Please have a read to this file.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
98402293_lai.pdf (329.9 KB, 240 views)
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 14:09
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Pages 55-67 were an especially good read.
A good reminder of how people can be duplicitous.
Interesting mindset, that when times were tough, we were expected to concede the most $$.
For the recent joiners, since those events almost 2 decades ago, note 2 things:
1- A leopard never changes its spots
2 - When times are good, we are compensated at a reduced rate compared with lower paid staff.

Was ever thus.
Will continue to be.
Plan your career accordingly.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 14:44
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STW, most of this could be a cut and paste from TWENTY years ago ffs. That is the message that really needs to be understood. CX has placed their pilots in a 20 yr time warp. I encourage everyone to have a good read of the link that Positionalpor has provided. It's worth 20 min of your time to review. In particular, what stood out was the salary/benefit scales provided, for the years 1998/1999. The shocking thing for me is that my salary/package is LESS that it was two decades ago. For the junior people, its only about 35% of what it was two decades ago. That is the real lesson to take away. CX has crippled the value of this career. They also have a defined strategy to basically manipulate, lie and intimidate when they can't get their way easily. There can be no possibility of a settled career in CX. If fact, it will certainly only get worse. It really is time to leave.
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Old 29th Aug 2018, 21:18
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Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post


Excellent deflection Trafalgar. As previously stated, the Swine Group are a perfidious bunch of unconscionable unscrupulous scrotes, but the question was, what sort of person continues to work for such scrotes, suffering the various abuses both to themselves and their families, just for filthy lucre? Perhaps your mirror is face to the wall... Certainly in the late ‘80s with an impending recession following the 87 crash we all had much more to lose than now, in a virtual full employment scenario for pilots for the foreseeable future. As has been asked before, given your last few sentences, why are you still here?





I think you can divide who is (still) here into the following categories:

1. "Refugee" pilots -- those who joined perhaps without knowing what they were really getting into and whose country of residence (or countries where they think they can work) has horrible working conditions for pilots. I think for these folks most were just looking to run and get out and didn't think the follow up out through very much. Or perhaps are parking here while looking and using this as a stepping stone (no doubt HKPA will be adjusted but chiseled to try to keep these folks down the line but they will always work more and more for less and less throughout their career)
2. Freshly minted indigenous pilots -- those fresh out of training and who live in HK. They were looking to become pilots and beam around the world (for whatever reason) and to them the pipeline made sense; most are younger and really have little idea how the airline biz works except they know they are from HK and this is flying and living in HK.
3. Old farts riding it out before pulling the pin and retiring and possibly going to a 'fun' retirement job--if working at all. To this group jumping and starting over at the bottom would involve salary and condition cuts, and wouldn't be worth the time and effort to start at the bottom. But their 'pull the pin' date has probably been accelerated by the goings on. And they will probably be using quite a bit of sick leave while here to get patched up as best as possible before enjoying their retirement years (like it or not, most of the CA's/CBAs/COSs have decent pay protection for people who break and are off work while they are getting fixed up. And quite a few older folks have quite a bit of deferred maintenance they really need to take care of).
4. Folks who want to continue in the airline business and have active applications elsewhere; awaiting the call for where they want to work.
5. Folks who don't understand the "Las Vegas" syndrome and are desperately wishing that things will get better (grasping at straws, rumors, CMP, and everything else despite no rational basis to believe they will as well as a history of being mislead). These are the type of folks who might invest heavily in the Lottery as a retirement scheme.

The airline business pretty much everywhere is seniority driven. So a person essentially makes a capital investment when he or she chooses which career airline to work for and if things deteriorate (and show no definite signs of getting better) every day they might spend there is precious lost seniority somewheres else. It's tough (but necessary) to dump this seniority (at least if someone is to continue in the airline business and not do something else) and sometimes a few folks get trapped in "the gambler's ruin."

The "Las Vegas" syndrome (aka "gambler's ruin") makes casinos rich. It is the belief that one is 'due' for a win after a series of losses despite the fact that the marginal probability remains exactly the same for each roll of the dice or flip of the card. You can predict the probability of a sequence occurring ahead of time (like the probability of the sequence of flipping heads ten times in a row--2 to the tenth power) or look at the probability of a particular sequence occurring after it has happened (same) but this is relatively useless information (unless you are betting on the sequence of someone flipping heads ten times in a row for some reason). The odds stay exactly the same for the NEXT roll which is the important one.

Perhaps equally important when you take a career where the employees had justifiable pride in the institution, and turn it into a "Paycheck Job" (without even that much of a paycheck), you destroy the loyalty and allegiance of your employees to function cohesively as a team. So you can expect a high turnover rate and folks doing the bare minimum. Not a good situation if you want a quality entity. Herb Kelleher's Southwest (or Southwest in the Herb era) was the opposite of this; folks WANTED to go to work because it was fun.

Last edited by Slasher1; 29th Aug 2018 at 21:59.
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