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Is the impasse impassable?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Is the impasse impassable?

Old 7th Aug 2018, 13:00
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
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Is the impasse impassable?

After years of negotiations, a failed TA. Then HPE that failed and now even more talks that have once again stalled. It seems to me that this Cc And TB will never be over.

We are about to be subjected to CMP which (illusions aside) will be trying for the crews who get subjected to the maximum productivity the company is paying for.

I would like to know where all this is all heading?
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Old 7th Aug 2018, 13:28
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Join Date: Jul 2018
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The sale of the airline of course !
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Old 7th Aug 2018, 14:05
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Join Date: Feb 2000
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The bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
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Old 7th Aug 2018, 16:23
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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I think people have to realise while CX is populated by a higher percentage of foreigners (expats) due to the lack of local aviation. CX is a Chinese airline in basically China, like Korean in Korea, JAL in Japan, Singapore Airlines etc

Expecting CX to behave like westerners because the majority of pilots are, is a lost cause, there's a cultural divide that won't be changed as we all eventually realise, the DFOs can't / won't even change it and Swire couldn't care less.
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Old 7th Aug 2018, 18:59
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Originally Posted by Avinthenews View Post
I think people have to realise while CX is populated by a higher percentage of foreigners (expats) due to the lack of local aviation. CX is a Chinese airline in basically China, like Korean in Korea, JAL in Japan, Singapore Airlines etc

Expecting CX to behave like westerners because the majority of pilots are, is a lost cause, there's a cultural divide that won't be changed as we all eventually realise, the DFOs can't / won't even change it and Swire couldn't care less.
Swire Group is probably one of the last few relics of British Colonial rule since China superseded HK as an economic powerhouse.
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Old 7th Aug 2018, 20:48
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[QUOTE=I think people have to realise while CX is populated by a higher percentage of foreigners (expats) due to the lack of local aviation. CX is a Chinese airline in basically China, like Korean in Korea, JAL in Japan, Singapore Airlines etc

Expecting CX to behave like westerners because the majority of pilots are, is a lost cause, there's a cultural divide that won't be changed as we all eventually realise, the DFOs can't / won't even change it and Swire couldn't care less. [/QUOTE]

Yes, but CX overlords are not Chinese.

Last edited by Amber Vibes; 7th Aug 2018 at 20:50. Reason: Editing
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Old 8th Aug 2018, 00:18
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Join Date: May 2017
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Indeed, CX is far from Chinese. It's got the Swire stink all over it, and that's Victorian mill owner stuff we're talking. Old school English.

Swire is a cancer.

There was a time a decade or two ago when we were bricking it thinking Air China might take over one day. Now it would be a blessing.
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Old 8th Aug 2018, 02:45
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Originally Posted by Amber Vibes View Post
Yes, but CX overlords are not Chinese.
The entire reason for the overlords being here is so they don't have to play by western rules, they play by local rules so stand by my comments, people will have to understand CX is not a western airline and fighting for western treatment has been a battle since '94.

New joiners have to be aware CX is not BA, QF, or any North American carrier if they're expecting that they shouldn't come.

Western pilots and so called western overlords does not make CX western.
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Old 8th Aug 2018, 06:09
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Just look at the results today. Still making a loss, but see fit to pay 393m HKD dividend to the shareholders (Swire, Qatar & Air China = 85% ownership)
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Old 8th Aug 2018, 06:15
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Yes. They can pay their employees before the passive shareholders. Screw the lot of them.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 01:17
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Impassible ??

This is called leverage.. While Swires are snivelling in the SCMP today; the following headline in the US Wall Street Journal today Business section TODAY !![*][*][*]Link copied…

Facing a Critical Pilot Shortage, Airlines Scramble to Hire New Pilots

Anticipating a wave of retirements, airlines are increasing salaries and benefits to attract and replenish staff

By
Robert Wall in London and
Andrew Tangel in Chicago
Aug. 8, 2018 5:30 a.m. ETAirlines are boosting salaries and setting up training centers to combat what is projected to be one of the biggest-ever pilot shortfalls.

The dearth of pilots has long been forecast, but it is only now that airlines are being forced to act. Boeing Co. estimates that airlines around the world will need to recruit 635,000 pilots over the next two decades to fly the record number of planes being built and to replace the thousands of aviators expected to retire during that span.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 03:23
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Originally Posted by Freehills View Post
Just look at the results today. Still making a loss, but see fit to pay 393m HKD dividend to the shareholders (Swire, Qatar & Air China = 85% ownership)
Borrowing to payout a dividend is never sustainable in the long run. In a purely technical sense, the company is liquidating some of it value, cashing it out and giving it to shareholders. The shareholder isn't any richer since the value of the company goes down by the amount borrowed, he is just more liquid.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 19:52
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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New CoS coming soon.
Stop nagging and leave now if you're brave enough.
Otherwise, just putup and sh**up (please)
Let's talk about the weather now hey......
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 21:37
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Join Date: Jul 2018
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Yes, it's impassable. There has been a major breach of trust which shows no sign of being rectified in any way.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 01:18
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Originally Posted by FlyingNun View Post
New CoS coming soon.
......
Which new COS...you mean the one (with RA67) Peter Hay has been talking about since 2015?
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 01:27
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Well, as our management seems utterly incapable of understanding the issues (they still think they are the only game in aviation), I seriously doubt there is a solution possible. If rumour is correct, the AOA walked out yesterday, which I am glad to hear. If management can't address (or even acknowledge) the serious and valid grievances we have, then there is no point in talking with them. Happy to keep CC and the TB for another 3 years. Everyone deserves a proper contract with career enhancing pay and benefits. Otherwise there is no point in being here. If you are planning on leaving, then you must also vote NO, as it would not be fair to those that are left behind (fewer and fewer by the week) to vote for something that won't affect you.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 05:11
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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AQIS Boigu:

Thanks for the mention! It is coming up to the one year mark of my Retirement at RA 65 and I must comment that it has been wonderful. It is so refreshing to be clear of the awful people that run Cathay Pacific Airways and to have control of your own life again. I look at PPRuNe from time to time and I must say that I am totally amazed how many of you are still working for these people. You are all sitting and waiting for them to change their spots, but they won't. It is not in their DNA and when you have the Management team they have and people like Tony Tyler operating in the background, a complete failure to accept the fuel hedging fiasco and not see the sense in coming up with a modern, proper computer roster system, that is not subject to the whims and fancies of the Cathay Crew Controllers, then you are always going to be pushing it uphill with a sharp stick.

How there was not a bigger negative response to the Captains not receiving the 13th Month Bonus, a complete slap in the face and a clear indication of the lack of respect for you and what you do, is a complete mystery to me.

How any Checker and Trainer can look at themselves in the mirror each morning as well at the moment, is beyond me. It is way past the time that you should have given it away and brought this shambles to a stop, until sanity and common sense kicks in.

I have not missed aviation, flying through the night and certainly Cathay Pacific and living in Hong Kong, for one single nano second. Folks, there is a much better life out of there and if you need to work, then do it for somebody else, not this awful lot. Don't be scared, it is nice out here! I could say more obviously, but I know you like short posts!!

Best Regards,

PH
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 07:03
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How there was not a bigger negative response to the Captains not receiving the 13th Month Bonus, a complete slap in the face and a clear indication of the lack of respect for you and what you do, is a complete mystery to me.
Coupled with the C&T team continuing to operate and allowing their families to travel on our "unsafe" and "falling standards" airline, Cathay Management have NOTHING to fear.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 11:40
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
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I have heard that the negotiations have ended in failure, and solely due to the company's intransigence (heard they offered a $1000 increase to HKPA!). Insiders feel free to comment. If so, entirely predictable. It is becoming very clear that the only real career is to be had elsewhere.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 12:35
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
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The precious trainers will be the first to cry and claim hardship when CX stands them down, as happened in KA.
The impact of the pattern optimisation, at considerable cost to CX, will yield similar short term results as it did in KA. There is a finite window for any “trainer” led AOA sanctioned moves.
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