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ICAC to investigate overtime bias

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

ICAC to investigate overtime bias

Old 3rd Aug 2018, 07:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 574
I guess Iím going I have to up my game by just sending moon cakes every year...:-p
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Old 3rd Aug 2018, 08:02
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 47
What did the Romanís ever do for us?
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Old 3rd Aug 2018, 08:49
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 30
" Unconscious Bias Training".
The clue is in the name. Only disciplinary action will fix "Conscious" Bias!
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Old 3rd Aug 2018, 12:11
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 64
Posts: 680
Originally Posted by BlunderBus View Post
Payback for 150 years of crap from the other side. Boot’s on the other foot now.
BB
Most of us have been very supportive of localisation and gone the extra mile to support the cadets through the system. Jump seats have always been given on a needs basis and not based on any profiling. This blatant rorting of the rostering system is something new and yet another indicator that this company is rotting from the head.
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Old 3rd Aug 2018, 13:00
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 751
Time to accept this company is terminally ill and head for greener pastures. Without transparency in something this fundamental (and oversight by the AOA), there can never be a chance of stability and faith in the foundations of a career. Its over.
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Old 5th Aug 2018, 10:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Transparency is something CX will never allow. If the outside business world could see how dysfunctional this airline really is the share price would collapse overnight. Game over.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 02:15
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: here
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by Dan Buster View Post
Yet another reason for purely seniority based roster bidding.
Perfect, I'd love nothing more to bid for a few long hauls out of HK. Up from Aus (based), over to Dublin, back to HK, and back to Aus. Easy 50hrs!

Thats what you mean by "Purely seniority based " right?
Will IB Fayed is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 03:58
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 506
What most of us mean by "seniority" is simply the fact that the more senior you become, the more benefits should accrue. That is the only guarantee of value in your career. Also the only way to ensure transparency in rostering/leave etc. Or do you think it reasonable and normal that a 60 yr old works twice as hard as a 25 yr old? The problem in CX is that most of the pilots have never worked for a proper seniority based airline, therefore have no knowledge or understanding of the importance and value that those systems provide. There is a reason that the US airlines have the best working/pay/benefit conditions in the industry. It's because every pilot employed there has a vested interest in seeing the value of years invested increase, year on year. That forces the airlines to improve pay and benefits such that senior Captains at Southwest (737's) are making upwards of $40K/mo (some Delta Captains are earning $80K/mo with overtime). Something to look forward to as you climb the ladder. Here at CX, all you have to look forward to is working yourself to death in a rostering system that can deliberately work the older pilots literally to death. If you haven't worked in a strict seniority system, then perhaps accept that you really don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 04:07
  #29 (permalink)  
swh

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Join Date: May 2001
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Originally Posted by Will IB Fayed View Post
Perfect, I'd love nothing more to bid for a few long hauls out of HK. Up from Aus (based), over to Dublin, back to HK, and back to Aus. Easy 50hrs!

Thats what you mean by "Purely seniority based " right?
Sure sounds good if you actually have the seniority to have that base position.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 04:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,609
It might be worth adding that it isn't only rostering that is important in respect of seniority. It is also vital to ensure fair allocation of fleet positions. Our reluctance to insist on strict seniority results in a lottery of type allocation, whereup senior people risk being trapped on the worst fleets (and in fact are). Or do you think it fair that a jr Captain is entitled to a slot on the 777/350 and a much senior Captain is trapped on the freighter, with no ability to ensure movement to the better fleets during their career? With our current system, anyone is subject to arbitrary and capricious disadvantage, which can affect your entire career. There is a downside to strict seniority (the early years are more difficult), but it is truly the ONLY system that ensures fairness overall. As ATY said above, if you haven't worked in such a system, then accept you really don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 05:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Our junior pilot colleagues are only too happy to accept strict DOJ seniority when it comes to staff travel but not for anything else.
More "me, me, me" mentality.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 05:31
  #32 (permalink)  
swh

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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 1,953
Traf,

There have been a number one of opportunities for senior 747 pilots to move across. I remember reading things like they would never fly a twin over water, never fly a FBW Airbus where the pilot does not have the final control, CX is ordering the 747-8i and thy will be the senior pilots flying them. CX is buying the A380, and they will be flying them as the are the only ones with super category experience......

There are many of these so called junior A350 pilots that did their time flying all the regional patterns while junior pilots to them were going to work only a few times a month on the 777 and getting 50% more salary.

Think you are misguided as to the rosters on the A330/A350, have a look at the CMP pairings just published to see the luxury they are in for.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 06:34
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 751
SWH, yes, you are correct that the company has let some of the 747 pilots come across. But again, that highlights the problem. It's NOT based on seniority. There may have been more senior pilots on either the 777 or Airbus that wanted those slots, and they couldn't have them. There can be no stability in a CX career without a proper, strict seniority system. The only way people seem to wake up to that reality is when they personally get abused by the current system. We are a regressive and failed airline, and this is one big reason why.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 08:14
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 356

Think you are misguided as to the rosters on the A330/A350, have a look at the CMP pairings just published to see the luxury they are in for.
Luxury??
I thought the same when I looked at the pairings for us crew in HK on the 330/A50.
I can see there's going to be plenty of pineapples going around, but it still looks as if there's patterns to all the destinations, albeit with plenty of night flying fillers. So overall I wasn't impressed, until an Australian based colleague of same vintage showed me the Aus patterns. Almost all are WOCL flights with a large amount of camels n curry thrown in. On reflection their Australian based patterns have only one decent pattern out of the 70 or 80 I saw, and not even an occasional ULH to Europe, so CMP has well shafted them. In comparison, our options in HK look good.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 08:29
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 751
CMP is setting up to be an epic failure, and probably exacerbating the crewing/retention problems that are now becoming endemic. CX management just can't give up "control", be it in limiting consecutive days off, ignoring fatigue and continuing to work pilots until they (inevitably) suffer from broken health. There is no realistic hope of a stable, long term career at CX. Management is only interested in working you to the maximum possible, for as many years as possible, then happily discarding you on the rubbish pile to be replaced by a cheaper, younger version...and so the cycle continues.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 11:07
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Venezuela
Posts: 29
Great post ATY.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 05:49
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Is it true ? Last Friday afternoon, 3 ICAC officials interviewed the new GMA in his CX office about the overtime bias.
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