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Combined resources of the two airlines.

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Combined resources of the two airlines.

Old 24th May 2018, 07:55
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hong Kong
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Combined resources of the two airlines.

KA, as a subsidiary to CX, has most of its functions integrated to CX group's airlines business, unlike other subsidiaries like CPCS, which functions as an independent company and an independent source of income.
Over the last ten years after the merger, we can only see the back office functions absorbed into CX's mainframe. Other than that, just the name change, and no integration on the crew related side.
It looks as if CX senior management team have no idea on what to do with KA.

Some Cathay local cadets have long been criticised for their lack of adequate skills to fly planes, unlike most DE SO/FO s which carried hundreds if not thousands of hours before joining, or back in the days entry with military experience.
Something I still can't get my head around is, why doesn't CX fully utilise the combined training and flight resources after the merger?

There are so many ideas in my mind that can only be a win-win situation for both company and pilots.
To improve flying skills, why not provide an option, sending CX SOs to fly KA routes for a year or two, before their JFO upgrades?
Why spending millions to train up DEFOs for type rating courses in KA, then allowing them to go in 1 or 2 years, instead of utilising it for CX training?
Why not provide an option, an alternate route for our SOs for early command in the KA fleets?
What are the benefits on keeping their training and recruitment separated?

Back in a few weeks time someone on slido suggested crew exchange through secondment from CX/KA vice versa, surely that will add a bit of variety and fun to our work, what's the harm of doing that?
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Old 24th May 2018, 17:06
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Umm, you are new here aren't you....
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Old 24th May 2018, 18:49
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If something seems to make sense, even to the point of being obvious, you can almost bet your life that the CX/Swire wonít do it.
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Old 24th May 2018, 19:37
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You know the image I have always had of Dragon Air/Cathay Dragon was that of a cheaper version of CX, like a full service LCC. Think Rolex and Tudor. Boy was I wrong.
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Old 24th May 2018, 19:55
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Nothing will change for the better unless new leadership is brought in. The Swires, the HK mafia, and the Mainland Communists have no chance at turning this titanic mess around. Only Western, modern airline experienced execs with turn around experience will be able to save the day. We all know itís true, even they know it. We lack a coherent product, up to date processes / productivity, and any version of a healthy corporate culture. In sum, we are nothing short of an unmitigated disaster occurring in slow motion. Will the last one out please turn off the lights?
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Old 24th May 2018, 20:57
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Nothing will change for the better unless new leadership is brought in. The Swires, the HK mafia, and the Mainland Communists have no chance at turning this titanic mess around. Only Western, modern airline experienced execs with turn around experience will be able to save the day. We all know itís true, even they know it. We lack a coherent product, up to date processes / productivity, and any version of a healthy corporate culture. In sum, we are nothing short of an unmitigated disaster occurring in slow motion. Will the last one out please turn off the lights?
Example of a Western modern airline? Seems like they all rank pretty low in terms of service compared to middle east and asian carriers. Can you have happy crew and happy passengers?
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Old 25th May 2018, 18:12
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what do you want? Hot cabin crew offering the best service in the world or solid labor laws that protect the individual. Seems that you can not have both. I choose the latter.
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Old 25th May 2018, 21:46
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Originally Posted by DropKnee View Post
what do you want? Hot cabin crew offering the best service in the world or solid labor laws that protect the individual. Seems that you can not have both. I choose the latter.
As a passenger they could not care less about the labor laws of the people serving them, as long as they're happy the company is happy, until an incident happens..............then things change.......maybe.
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Old 28th May 2018, 13:50
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In a normal world this is the case, your idea would 100% be relevant. With most European majors, their junior officers start off with A320s or B737s on their "in house" short haul routes, like BA, LH, KLM, SU, etc all do the same; in LH, it is furthermore possible to transfer between its subsidiaries like GWI or Cityline. In a normal airline, you would have a highly experienced SFO or "Relief Captain" in order to do long haul relief duties. Here, you have Second Officers to do so.

What we are dealing with here is not a normal airline, but one which crunch costs to a bare minimum. You think that they really care about their cadets' flying skills? I don't work in CX but to what I've heard, all they need is someone "Qualified" in order to babysit the flight deck during the long hauls. When I say qualified, I don't mean competent. It is simply the legal meaning of the word, i.e. just for paperwork purposes. As a 2nd officer, they don't need you to fly the plane well. What interests them here is nothing but cost, someone who is able to stay awake for 6+ hours doing nothing, and sitting on low pay. If you fail to upgrade after the 5-7 years as SO, they would fire you in return for a DEFO, who would be lower on the seniority list in comparison to an upgraded SO, which in return, would be cheaper.

Then again they are not afraid of losing SO's, since there are thousands of starry eyed locals wishing to do that, for the perks of saying "I'm a pilot". Having been to selection events, I have had cadet candidates who possessed NO interest for aviation whatsoever. I remembered someone who couldn't distinguish A330s and B777s, someone who said that it was just cool to be a pilot, and another who simply needed a grad job, as well as one who spoke barely any English (How did he even pull that one off on the application forms?). Sure, I don't know what became of these people at the end but if this is the sort of people they are even considering hiring, then what can you expect.

Back to your topic, in short, don't expect to see any combination of training or any sort of way to allow 2nd officers to gain flying experience between airlines happening for the moment. They don't want that, and they don't need that. If that was the aim in the first place, then CX would have done it on their own fleet earlier already.

That's what my research, experience, and conversations have told me. Feel free to correct me with some "insider info" should I be mistaken on certain facts.
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Old 28th May 2018, 14:06
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Spot on. Every. Single. Word. (oh, and the one that couldn't speak a word of english, almost certainly we hired him as i've flown with more than one that fits the description!).
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Old 28th May 2018, 17:39
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Originally Posted by shinytubedreamer View Post
In a normal world this is the case, your idea would 100% be relevant. With most European majors, their junior officers start off with A320s or B737s on their "in house" short haul routes, like BA, LH, KLM, SU, etc all do the same; in LH, it is furthermore possible to transfer between its subsidiaries like GWI or Cityline. In a normal airline, you would have a highly experienced SFO or "Relief Captain" in order to do long haul relief duties. Here, you have Second Officers to do so.

What we are dealing with here is not a normal airline, but one which crunch costs to a bare minimum. You think that they really care about their cadets' flying skills? I don't work in CX but to what I've heard, all they need is someone "Qualified" in order to babysit the flight deck during the long hauls. When I say qualified, I don't mean competent. It is simply the legal meaning of the word, i.e. just for paperwork purposes. As a 2nd officer, they don't need you to fly the plane well. What interests them here is nothing but cost, someone who is able to stay awake for 6+ hours doing nothing, and sitting on low pay. If you fail to upgrade after the 5-7 years as SO, they would fire you in return for a DEFO, who would be lower on the seniority list in comparison to an upgraded SO, which in return, would be cheaper.

Then again they are not afraid of losing SO's, since there are thousands of starry eyed locals wishing to do that, for the perks of saying "I'm a pilot". Having been to selection events, I have had cadet candidates who possessed NO interest for aviation whatsoever. I remembered someone who couldn't distinguish A330s and B777s, someone who said that it was just cool to be a pilot, and another who simply needed a grad job, as well as one who spoke barely any English (How did he even pull that one off on the application forms?). Sure, I don't know what became of these people at the end but if this is the sort of people they are even considering hiring, then what can you expect.

Back to your topic, in short, don't expect to see any combination of training or any sort of way to allow 2nd officers to gain flying experience between airlines happening for the moment. They don't want that, and they don't need that. If that was the aim in the first place, then CX would have done it on their own fleet earlier already.

That's what my research, experience, and conversations have told me. Feel free to correct me with some "insider info" should I be mistaken on certain facts.
This is 100% correct, and itís written by someone outside CX. This is the Company we work at and the sad reality you new joiners face. I havenít recommended CX to ANYONE for nearly 10 years. Donít most airline pilots all try to get their flying buddies into the airline. Here, we (experienced expats) all say the same, stay away! Only newbies with ďpay for likesĒ Instagram and Facebook accounts would be callous enough to bro-hump their buddies into CX.
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Old 29th May 2018, 01:35
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Dragonpacific

Stupid idea! KA is being run at red line. Now you want to turn it into a training airline? More than it already is. Four wide body sectors a day into China at its extreme, with CMP creating never seen before minimum rest patterns in worsening hotels. Experimental SOPs coupled with digital aeroplane/digital Flight Bag so nobody can keep up.

Everyone take a deep breath! Because in a few months time,I'm sure, in typically panicked fashion we will receive more aircraft or expansion from CX and more red eye patterns so CMP can squeeze more blood from a stone.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 29th May 2018 at 07:58.
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Old 29th May 2018, 02:56
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The Medan schedule looks fun...
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Old 29th May 2018, 03:30
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Originally Posted by Freehills View Post
The Medan schedule looks fun...
Not only the schedule, weather in the Straight of Malacca will be horrible during the wet season. I remember my Caravan days based out of Medan and weather could be horrible in the area.
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Old 29th May 2018, 03:41
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post


This is 100% correct, and itís written by someone outside CX. This is the Company we work at and the sad reality you new joiners face. I havenít recommended CX to ANYONE for nearly 10 years. Donít most airline pilots all try to get their flying buddies into the airline. Here, we (experienced expats) all say the same, stay away! Only newbies with ďpay for likesĒ Instagram and Facebook accounts would be callous enough to bro-hump their buddies into CX.
Stopped recommending this place when they decided to scrap expat housing.

Congrats NR and RH
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Old 30th May 2018, 09:01
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
Dragonpacific

Stupid idea! KA is being run at red line. Now you want to turn it into a training airline? More than it already is. Four wide body sectors a day into China at its extreme, with CMP creating never seen before minimum rest patterns in worsening hotels. Experimental SOPs coupled with digital aeroplane/digital Flight Bag so nobody can keep up.

Everyone take a deep breath! Because in a few months time,I'm sure, in typically panicked fashion we will receive more aircraft or expansion from CX and more red eye patterns so CMP can squeeze more blood from a stone.
oh yes... Penang is just one example... due to the terrible roster for the cockpit, a few minutes delay into PEN in the evening means an hour or longer delay the next morning... with constantly declining hotel quality...
for the passenger (like me, a regular on that route): terrible constant delays and missing of appointments and connections
for KA: terrible additional work and cost to handle those passengers that miss their connections in HKG..
where on earth is the advantage for the company??? Apparent saving on paper but crazy additional cost in reality... plus p... off passengers...
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:58
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Ridiculous to roster PEN as 11.30hrs or so rest. The duty is often over 12hrs preceding so can't reduce the rest. Next morning delay usually 90 mins or so and the crew then have to stroll to Gate 6 past the waiting passengers. Cabin crew then have to deal with grumpy passengers for the next four hours.
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Old 30th May 2018, 16:50
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Originally Posted by GMEDX View Post
Ridiculous to roster PEN as 11.30hrs or so rest. The duty is often over 12hrs preceding so can't reduce the rest. Next morning delay usually 90 mins or so and the crew then have to stroll to Gate 6 past the waiting passengers. Cabin crew then have to deal with grumpy passengers for the next four hours.
Real airlines put two crews in the hotel to avoid this type of situation because it is far cheaper than dealing with the knock on effects of constant delays due to crew rest. However, CX/KA donít recognize any cost savings other than those which can be seen on an ICM spreadsheet. They quite literally step over dollar bills to pick up nickels. You canít really call this anything other than what it is... BAD MANAGEMENT!
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Old 31st May 2018, 09:18
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post


Real airlines put two crews in the hotel to avoid this type of situation because it is far cheaper than dealing with the knock on effects of constant delays due to crew rest. However, CX/KA donít recognize any cost savings other than those which can be seen on an ICM spreadsheet. They quite literally step over dollar bills to pick up nickels. You canít really call this anything other than what it is... BAD MANAGEMENT!
what about the cost saving by having no overnights in CTS because it's expensive and they can afford to risk cancelling a week's flights per winter
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Old 31st May 2018, 09:38
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Get yer own "handle"!

Hi DragonPacific. Would you mind getting your own PPRuNe user name please. Thank you, Dragon Pacific.
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