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Where is the HKAOA heading?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Where is the HKAOA heading?

Old 25th Aug 2017, 09:15
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Where is the HKAOA heading?

Having read El Presidilgo’s message today, I am getting increasingly worried as to where we, as a union, are heading. I thought we had industrial leverage with the Training Ban and Contract Compliance. What’s happened, where’s it gone, what have I missed?

I can’t help but see HPE as everyone sitting in a tent drinking the company’s koolaid, breathing in the company’s second-hand smoke, pretending to be airline managers and emerging from the tent intoxicated from their BS and announcing that it’s in our best interest to drop the Training Ban, drop our pants and touch our toes.

I’m not against employing a financial analyst, goodness knows we need help, but let’s be realistic. He’s not going to see anything the company don’t want him to see. Cathay are constantly audited and have to brief regulators, investors and lenders. This is very comfortable territory for them.

Again, I’m not taking anything away from what the Analyst may find, but I would ask that everyone remembers these numbers. All these numbers come from the company and I take them at face value.

1. The best profit the company ever made was in 2010. In that year some extraordinary profits occurred, but stripping them out, CX/KA profit was $HK9.5bn ($HK9,500m).
2. The company tells us that the Fuel Hedging losses are real expenses, not funny accounting. They say that they actually wrote out cheques for these amounts, $8.5bn in 2015 and 2016 and $3.2bn for the first six months of this year.
3. So in the 30 month period 2015- Jun 2017 we paid HK$19.2bn cash to the Fuel Hedging Markets. Chuck in HK$500m for Cargo Fines, that’s HK$19.7bn. Now let’s compare that to 30 month’s of record profit of HK$23.75bn; not dissimilar I would suggest.

Bottom line: Is it time to take a “wee break” from talks? Management can try and sweep the Fuel Hedging losses under the carpet, but let’s not forget that we are flying into one hell of a headwind. Essentially, (they say) we are presently paying the equivalent of our best profit (2010) in cash, to the Fuel Hedgers every year. But this headwind doesn’t last forever. Perhaps the smart move is to step away and return when the headwinds decrease. Let the company deal with the training backlog, resignations and delays. If/when they want our help, they know the HKAOA’s phone number.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 10:38
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Because D the TC is DELUSIONAL , and a DEER in the headlights.More HPE CPS blah blah blah , it feels like a management update , repeatedly saying the same thing over and over and over
WHY are we going 50/50? FFS ......
It goes on and on.....
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 17:27
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Certainly nowhere with statutory holiday pay !! The girls settled theirs in a blink.. audit? What's new? The Aoa pre 49ers thought of it all before. Lacking the same absence of originality as our employers.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 00:14
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"We’ve now reached a critical phase in the discussions on HPE/CPS, and given our financial results, the next steps will be difficult for us all. It is clear that we need to make changes in FOP so that we meet our financial targets and also ensure we remain a competitive and sustainable airline. There will need to be compromise and substantial savings achieved. "

WHY ARE WE TALKING? Darryl are your self ambitions to go into management really so important that you are willing to throw the entire pilot body under the bus?

GC wtf are you doing???
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 00:58
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If the rumours are true it sounds like ARAPA is dead and 20/40/60 will be the new reality.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 01:10
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thats the thing about rumours, they are just that
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 01:43
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I have to agree. With the non-stop rhetoric from the company, the AOA should politely withdraw. We are basically being conned into taking responsibility for possibly cutting further the pay and benefits of the pilot group. We have had no profit sharing for years, no proper pay raises, a stripping away of our RP's...and basically a complete devaluation of the value of our careers. At what point do we say 'enough'? D, it's time to stand up, not lie down. There is no happy outcome 'negotiating' with this lot. They are not sincere, and simply using a manufactured crisis as an opportunity. Even Goldman Sachs said last week that CX is going to see a substantial improvement to their numbers, and raised their target for the stock price. Enough. And to AT and RH, this is one (of many i'm sure) [email protected]'s that will be resigning the next day if you tamper with housing. Please, call my bluff....
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 04:33
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Read the Friday Flyer.

Not going anywhere except downhill and everyone is holding hands and singing Kumbaya.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 05:21
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Traf and all the other stupid loudmouths here, how about you take responsibility for the failed TA. You can say what you like but the pilots now realise that we should have grabbed that. ie. you don't know what you are talking about. Yes the company would have still come after us but our starting position would have been higher than now re salary and HKPA and more locked into our COS!!!. Clause 7 - give me a break, are we now all powerful because we resisted that evil or is it now a red herring and we about to be done anyway?

Traf your rantings have failed the pilot body and assisted in putting us in a worse position. Yes please resign.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 06:55
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You speak utter bollox, ipad.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 08:30
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It is really quite interesting listening to you lot.

Just wondering how many of you took the time to go the AOA focus night?

Did you ask the HPE guy and the accountant the really tough questions you wanted to be answered?

Also wondering how many of you ran for the open AOA GC positions in order to improve your position and help your AOA with improving our position.

I'm gonna go with "No to busy", No I wasn't there, and quite evidently none of you did.

If you can't do anything except complain to your echo chamber, perhaps it better doing nothing at all and st*u.

I do agree with OK, iPad is without a clue, except for the Traf remark!
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 08:34
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hmmm. "stupid loudmouths". How old are you? My 7 year old sometimes slips and spouts such inanities. Traf (and other considered and experienced others) speak intelligently in regards to the history, and current situation in respect of the pilot group. You might want to heed that. The last TA was FLAWED. The company wanted us to vote for it for a reason. I would rather fight the good fight and lose, than be lying on my back victimised by the machinations of this company. Someone like yourself will have a worthless career because you are easily bought off. Nothing good in this industry has come easy, or without a fight. Grow a pair.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 09:39
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Ah yes I didn't join CX for a financial gain I joined to "fight the good fight". Some of you are living on a different planet to the rest of us who would like to achieve the best pay/work ratio to provide for financial security for our families. The reward/risk suggested that the TA was worth accepting. Does anyone now believe that the HPE will lead to a better pay/work ratio than we are on now?
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 12:18
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So, your opinion that the TA was 'worth accepting' concludes that those that disagree are "stupid loudmouths". You are an immature child and I suggest you go sit in the corner until you can converse properly with your elders. Seriously, what pair of short pants did you just change into? The MAJORITY of voting members rejected the TA. Perhaps you might want to consider that. Loudmouth.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 13:13
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I think it's hilarious how we drop CC during a typhoon and then the very next Friday flyer she says thanks and by the way we are cutting your pay/benefits.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 13:17
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Sydneyman. That is irrelevant. Any vote is only relevant to it's time and place. The very issues that killed the last TA should kill any similar offer. Money should not be paramount to long term career considerations. If you think that the last offer was 'sufficient', then you WILL have a compromised and miserable career. This company and it's pilot's have reached a turning point, and how we now react and resist will determine whether or not you and your families have a career and future worth investing in. Don't let the obstinance and arrogance of the Swire's dissuade you from standing up for proper conditions and treatment. That is what the last vote was about. So should the next one be.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 13:25
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The Swire's are attempting to ram through career damaging changes to your contracts, using a crisis that THEY created through incompetence and arrogance. At what point will the pilots of this airline realise that we can't cower down as we have always done? There will be no CAREER worth having if CX achieve their aims. It is time to show our management that WE do our jobs reliably, safely and loyally. It is they that are the problem. No to a further degradation to our T and C's. If we all don't now stand up to that, we will have nothing left to stand for.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 14:17
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I think an important take away for someone who might spend significant time here--or is just getting started and not simply riding things out for a few years-- is how much of your life do you want to dedicate toward someone who would rather, all things considered, go out and blow your money at the track. Rather than paying you what you rightfully deserve considering the circumstances and where you live.

And is willing to go to any length possible NOT to pay you what you deserve rather than righting the ship and making peace.

Now it may be possible that his brother in law owns the track but stuff like this is discovered in time. And doesn't change the fact you are getting willfully stiffed.
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Old 26th Aug 2017, 16:24
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Originally Posted by Shep69 View Post
I think an important take away for someone who might spend significant time here--or is just getting started and not simply riding things out for a few years-- is how much of your life do you want to dedicate toward someone who would rather, all things considered, go out and blow your money at the track. Rather than paying you what you rightfully deserve considering the circumstances and where you live.

And is willing to go to any length possible NOT to pay you what you deserve rather than righting the ship and making peace.

Now it may be possible that his brother in law owns the track but stuff like this is discovered in time. And doesn't change the fact you are getting willfully stiffed.
Riding things out? Is that what you're doing Shep? Of course you've got a gamble of your own going, right? Ironically, since you have one foot out the door as well, you ALSO are playing with other peoples' money. Is it so different?
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Old 30th Aug 2017, 16:29
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WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF and WTF

Has El Presiligio lost his mind? He's talking about giving concessions if the company's BS is verified by a third party. That's your career he's talking about.

Bolleaux to any third party. What about the membership that voted for him? I don't remember any talk of concessions when he stood for election. I do remember lots of spin and promises. Maybe he's got a big glowing MANAGEMENT CAREER EICAS blinding him, but WTF are the rest of the GC doing?

To the new guys coming onto the GC. You got my support because all but one of you had nothing in your manifestos about concessions and I do hope you will be true to your word and put a stop to this madness before we witness the biggest own goal in aviation history.

One more time... WTF?
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