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KA Standard COS...My experience

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

KA Standard COS...My experience

Old 9th May 2017, 08:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 82
Guys & Gals, it is every industry. Too many mainlanders coming across and paying cash for flats and school spaces, it is pricing out the middle class of HK. The French don't seem to have received the message as they are still arriving. But eventually, it will implode in itself--not sure when, but if the expat middle wave leaves in droves. Add to that the social tension in HK; other locations or back home start to look really good.

I've lived in Tung Chung for a year, I have not seen or heard about a suicide yet but not something I seek out either. 11 years in HK total.

Ending on a happier note, agree totally, if you are single, or DINKS. Come, enjoy yourselves.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:02
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 54
Posts: 413
Gaisha,

as long as people like you accept the offered conditions, as long as people like you do not leave, things will not improve.

Since years now you and many more before you are taking part in an unwinnable game:

you want to convince OTHERS not to join, but you want to stay YOURSELF.

I do not buy your story.

Two years ago ALL the information was there. Everything.

You saw the money back then and you see the money today. You could go back any time, but for a $ sacrifice. So you convince yourself to stay just a bit longer, just a few hours more, just for the command...

And so the race to the bottom continues..
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Old 9th May 2017, 14:47
  #23 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: hong kong
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Gaisha,

as long as people like you accept the offered conditions, as long as people like you do not leave, things will not improve.
Not sure what the reference "like you" is referring to... if you mean a pilot looking for work elsewhere in the hope to advance their career and be awarded with a remuneration package and salary increases in line with the CPI of Hong Kong then I assume I am like most of us here.

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Since years now you and many more before you are taking part in an unwinnable game:

you want to convince OTHERS not to join, but you want to stay YOURSELF.

I do not buy your story.
You aren't the person I'm trying to convince so i could care less if you buy my story or not. It seems you have problems comprehending. (something I've notices in previous threads..I hope you aren't a pilot) As i mentioned before, I was considering leaving.

Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Two years ago ALL the information was there. Everything.

You saw the money back then and you see the money today. You could go back any time, but for a $ sacrifice. So you convince yourself to stay just a bit longer, just a few hours more, just for the command...

And so the race to the bottom continues..
The information has always been there, but as i mentioned, like many others who come to HK in search of the dream, its not simply about crunching the numbers. One has to live here, day to day, to realise all of the expenses.

Just because we know the facts and are provided information before hand, does not mean we can't continue to push for better contracts or wages. Since the A scale, pilots were constantly battling it out with management in the hope that their earnings would be increased...and they succeeded.
When Expat B were in contract compliance, they too knew about the numbers and the cost of living in HK.....after 35 captains left in a matter of 8 weeks, it resulted in management realising it can't continue and they ended up increasing their remuneration by 40%.

By the way, those of you still bitter about the staff travel deal...build a bridge...or post in the relevant thread....Sure, KA pilots are not able to get a higher priority on CX flights, but it works both ways. Pilots aren't the only ones who make up staff travel..there are a lot of back office staff who get it too and they aren't interested in going to europe or australia but rather China or S.E asia.....its a bigger picture than just us pilots.
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Old 10th May 2017, 01:45
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 54
Posts: 413
As long as people like you not only relocate all the way from Europe, but only "consider" leaving, what do you expect will happen to your conditions of service in the future? You answered that question yourself, only when pilots actually did leave things changed.

Is that really so hard to "comprehend"?


PS I don't blame KA employees for the travel policy change. It was not their decision. Which is why I never mentioned it in any of my posts.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th May 2017 at 01:56.
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Old 10th May 2017, 04:28
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 52
Posts: 84
Today's midday ATIS 10 th April says it all : POLLUTION

ARRIVAL

HONG KONG ARRIVAL INFORMATION K AT TIME 0406
ARRIVAL RUNWAY 25R
WIND 280 DEG 06 KT

VISIBILITY 1500m
RVR 1100m

CLOUD FEW 1200FT
IN HAZE
TEMPERATURE 29 DEWPOINT 24

Guys n gals, they may pay you here, they may " give" you a rating and they may eventually promote you, but no one can be prepared for the effect of living your life in grey polluted air . There are no green views just grey everywhere , for 80% of the year.
You do get accustomed to it though , if that helps. My kid coughed throughout the winter months, so I'm fearful of the long term effects.

Unfortunately , Im unable to move from here as Im not going to start again at the bottom of a seniority list. Im sucking it up, literally .

Last edited by TheGreenDragon; 10th May 2017 at 16:33.
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Old 10th May 2017, 04:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 52
Posts: 84
From todays SCMP , the main English language daily :

" A blanket of heavy pollution smothered Hong Kong’s biggest business and shopping districts on Wednesday.

Citizens braving the sweltering heat also had to put up with pollution levels categorised as “very high” in Central, Causeway Bay and Mong Kok.

According to the Environmental Protection Department, as of 10am the air quality health index had reached 8 at roadside stations in the two districts, indicating a very high health risk. Roadside stations in Mong Kok and general stations in Tuen Man and Tai Po reported AQHI readings of 7, indicating a high health risk"
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Old 10th May 2017, 05:57
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In the land of smog
Posts: 196
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/05/10/smog-alert-serious-air-pollution-hong-kong-airport-levels-exceed-maximum/
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Old 10th May 2017, 06:08
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Here ---> X
Posts: 438
HongKong Air Pollution: Real-time PM2.5 Air Quality Index (AQI)

Around 250 in Tung Chung today... Looks like we're giving Beijing a run for it!
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Old 11th May 2017, 03:48
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 52
Posts: 84
ADFUS - your comment is understandable, but Im guessing you are not a parent?

The smog may have health implications, but they are unmeasurable at this stage.
More damage would be done to my family were daddy to not have a job or not have the resources to be able to fund decent schooling and child activities . Being unemployed as a parent is something that would devastate a family .

Smog , yes agreed, its not ideal, and is always present . But so is dengue fever and malaria, foot and mouth . This is perhaps overlooked when considering the health risks of living in hk .

At least its relativly safe here. I make the choice to stay. As many 1000s of expatriate parents do. Im sure we all have a collective worry about our chosen place of work and the poor environment.

However, I wont be here forever and another few days of the pollution levels like we've experienced over the last week may accelerate my decision to relocate. But the options are surprisingly limited.
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Old 11th May 2017, 05:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 1st Floor
Age: 32
Posts: 100
I know the boys in Dubai will moan n groan about life in EK. However , heres an interesting comparison between HK and Dubai and although you get less $$ in Dubai it really goes much further.

Tung Chung , a favourite town of the pilot community. Adjacent to the airport. I had a look at square foot magazine, and picked a fairly typical example

Price: HK$ 5.7 M
Rent: HK$ 15,500
Gross Area: 648 (sq.ft.)
Saleable Area: 492 (sq.ft.)
Bedrooms2
Bathrooms1
- See more at: http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/mobile/property/19987626#sthash.Fnsx4EuJ.dpuf

The is around 2.6 million AED.

So Looking at , say, Dubai marina , for HK$ 5.7 mil you can purchase

Bhomes.com lists:

2 Bedroom Apartment,
AED 2,300,000Dubai Marina
( HK$4.8mil)
Approx size1,825 sq.ft
Reference NoAP287314

Looks like a comfortable apartment. Unlike in HK.

Or ...

AED 2,490,000
2 Bedroom Apartment + Maids
Approx size1,950 sq.ft
The Waves Tower B
Location Dubai Marina

The stamp duty alone on the above HK apartment would be $1 million to a none permanent ID holder, which could buy you 50% of an apartment in Dubai Marina !!!

1 Bedroom Apartment
AED 1 Million
Marina Crown
Location Dubai Marina
Approx.size 750 sq.ft.
Ref No. AP236378

A standard contract pilot in KA gets 21000 hk$
month housing . This in the long term is not going to sustain any career. You cannot establish roots easily and therfore will never really settle.

And the fact that B scale pilots can claim upto nearly $HK100,000 rental allowance or HK$ 72000 for a mortgage will soon pi$$ you off !
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Old 11th May 2017, 11:31
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
Krone. You say the $$$ are less in Dubai. Not true. Career earnings in EK are nearly double what they would be at CX for a new joiner. Especially taking into account the time to command. The AOA did an interesting spreadsheet on this a few years ago.
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Old 11th May 2017, 11:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,994
The DPA advises all members to take out additional medical insurance. We have had a number of distressing cases of members and family not being adequately covered by the company insurance.

So the first 2-5% of your salary needs to come out and pay for proper medical insurance. It peeves a lot of people off, even the tightest of pilots, but to not do so is a great risk with a number traumatic cases.

Resignations are on the rise again. But note they are B scale resignations.
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Old 11th May 2017, 12:07
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
So, the company drags pilots and their families half way around the world, but does not take the responsibility to provide adequate care for them. Disgusting (and that applies to CX as well).
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Old 11th May 2017, 12:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 562
Plenty of people slag off Dubai without ever having been or lived there.

It is a no-brainer for any C scaler despite what STW says.


Originally Posted by Krone View Post
I know the boys in Dubai will moan n groan about life in EK. However , heres an interesting comparison between HK and Dubai and although you get less $$ in Dubai it really goes much further.

Tung Chung , a favourite town of the pilot community. Adjacent to the airport. I had a look at square foot magazine, and picked a fairly typical example

Price: HK$ 5.7 M
Rent: HK$ 15,500
Gross Area: 648 (sq.ft.)
Saleable Area: 492 (sq.ft.)
Bedrooms2
Bathrooms1
- See more at: Tung Chung Apartments / Flats / Units to Sale - Coastal Skyline Blocks 1-3 & 5-6 - Ref # 19987626 - Squarefoot

The is around 2.6 million AED.

So Looking at , say, Dubai marina , for HK$ 5.7 mil you can purchase

Bhomes.com lists:

2 Bedroom Apartment,
AED 2,300,000Dubai Marina
( HK$4.8mil)
Approx size1,825 sq.ft
Reference NoAP287314

Looks like a comfortable apartment. Unlike in HK.

Or ...

AED 2,490,000
2 Bedroom Apartment + Maids
Approx size1,950 sq.ft
The Waves Tower B
Location Dubai Marina

The stamp duty alone on the above HK apartment would be $1 million to a none permanent ID holder, which could buy you 50% of an apartment in Dubai Marina !!!

1 Bedroom Apartment
AED 1 Million
Marina Crown
Location Dubai Marina
Approx.size 750 sq.ft.
Ref No. AP236378

A standard contract pilot in KA gets 21000 hk$
month housing . This in the long term is not going to sustain any career. You cannot establish roots easily and therfore will never really settle.

And the fact that B scale pilots can claim upto nearly $HK100,000 rental allowance or HK$ 72000 for a mortgage will soon pi$$ you off !
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Old 11th May 2017, 14:09
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,994
So, the company drags pilots and their families half way around the world, but does not take the responsibility to provide adequate care for them. Disgusting (and that applies to CX as well).
Exact words of an OT&P Doctor yesterday during a consultation.
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Old 11th May 2017, 16:27
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 1st Floor
Age: 32
Posts: 100
Traf, I was referring to KA standard contract ( C scale ) guys. CX SOs earn considerably less that ka DEFOs and no doubt would be better off in the short term in EK.

No one can prepare a new joiner for how poor the quality of flats in Hong Kong are, especially those rancid shoe boxes guys are happy to call home in Tung Chung/ Olympic.

Bring your mates over from virgin or BA or Qantas and they will pi$$ their pants at what low standards of living C scale pilots are accepting . And paying through the nose for it all .
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Old 11th May 2017, 16:40
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
I hear you. If you objectively consider the difference in career progress, and associated career earnings, EK is a no brainer. It has become impossible for anyone other than a young single 'brushwinger' to survive in HK. Once you start to consider the implications of a proper life/career (ie: wife/children/home ownership/medical/retirement), there is nothing CX offers that can answer that question. Ultimately it's up to the 'brushwingers' to decide whether each day they stay at CX is a day wasted that can be better applied elsewhere. Many of the C scalers here today will desperately wish they had given this the consideration it deserves.
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Old 12th May 2017, 03:11
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 52
Posts: 84
It is highly possible that new joiners in Dragon / CX are here only because they were unable to secure a career elsewhere?

Both companies have dropped their experience standards for new joiners. As far as KA goes, training support has being significantly increased to allow lower ability crew to pass their checks and indeed the current PC LOEs are diluted down ( made easier) depending on the experience level of the crew ( FO-JFO-SO). In times gone by , all pilots were expected to complete the same competency checks . Not now .
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Old 12th May 2017, 05:13
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: china
Age: 52
Posts: 89
At least the original poster has put his hand up and said " I got it wrong KA is not what I thought it was going to be"

Its easy to be blinded by the $$$ signs in the adverts, especially Brits with a 10:1 with the pund now. And 15% tax.

But we all know its smoke and mirrors to het you in . Then theres the "training" beast to tame. Good luck with that. Its the same block heads who were incharge 10 yrs ago still spouting their inane platitudes based on archaic British Midland SOPs. And Kegworth was such an example of how not to operate, yet we have one of those guys from that era as training manager. I mean WTF !!!!!!
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Old 12th May 2017, 05:31
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 70
Pilots left in droves already in the days of the old expat A-scale and later on the expat B-scale.

Similar arguments, much better elsewhere....

Many pilots loved it and stayed for 30+ years and could never get enough.
What has changed?
Nothing, we are all individuals.

Sadly, almost everyone that left regret their decision......!
tsimbeit is offline  

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