Buddha's Close Shave.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: nowhere
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
STP-
It would never happen at CX! If it happened here it would be the pilots setting everything up for the right turn towards the mountain whilst verifying all FMA modes are stated. Meanwhile, the aircraft would continue flying straight as neither would've realized the autopilot was not on and nobody was flying the jet.
It would never happen at CX! If it happened here it would be the pilots setting everything up for the right turn towards the mountain whilst verifying all FMA modes are stated. Meanwhile, the aircraft would continue flying straight as neither would've realized the autopilot was not on and nobody was flying the jet.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BRISBANE
Age: 59
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Handling of CFIT by both Pilots and ATC
Shenzhen Airlines HKG on Sunday!
Good lesson learnt for pilots (CRM) and ATC (TEM) although I wonder if the people concerned are really aware of the seriousness of this incident. It would be an organisation failure if effective actions (e.g. education) are not taken.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where You Aren't
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, it was a 4-crew 747 go-around which flew for some minutes with no autopilot and no pilot manipulating the controls while everyone wondered, "why isn't it following the flight directors?" I think about 10 years ago...
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: nowhere
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, that's just embarrassing. I remember this happening but not the details. Sounds pretty bad. I'm ashamed that this could happen here, if these articles are accurate.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 76
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with you Zodiac re lessons learned for pilots and ATC but disagree as far as ATC not being aware of the seriousness of the incident. I retired 3 years ago to Queensland after 45 years in ATC, 27 of those in Hong Kong working both Tower & Approach – Departure Radar. Many years ago I instigated regular, what in ATC is called ‘Refresher Training’. This training involves the exposure of all controllers in handling such things as aircraft deviation off track, altitude busts and general emergencies on either a radar simulator or state of the art 360 degree tower simulator. All training on initial Aerodrome Control courses involved, without warning, deliberate deviation of aircraft on final, departure, missed approach and descent below glide path. I also taught TEM to all controllers until I retired. Believe me, after the investigation there will be a ‘lessons learned’ report issued for controller reading (education).
It is also not “the most jaw-dropping CFIT in HK aviation history”. Hong Kong has had many such close calls over the years. You just don’t know about them. These days with mobile phone cameras, Flightradar 24 and the internet, everyone has access to the information about such incidents. I personally have had at least a dozen such incidents while working in Hong Kong, including deviation off runway centreline towards terrain at both Kai Tak and Chek Lap Kok, missed approach errors and descent well below glide path, wrong turns on instrument approaches and descent on the glidepath while still not established on the localizer.
The worst for me was in 1986 when a DC10 had a near CFIT in the vicinity of this incident. I had cleared the aircraft for a full IGS approach and was watching the aircraft on our old approach radar. No labels from SSR, just a blip on the radar. I did have beside me however, a long range radar which did have labels, but had to manipulate the radar to get the information. For a reason I don’t know to this day, I called up the label of the DC10 and saw that it was at 1800’ when it should have been at 4500’. The aircraft was in the right turn over SW Lantau to intercept the IGS Localizer. I told the aircraft to climb immediately and nobody could work out how they didn’t hit anything. The GPWS didn’t go off because of the bank angle at the time. The report said that the crew were one step out in the altitude flown for the approach. 1800’ should have been the altitude at the OM. The crew never saw the terrain as the cloud base in Hong Kong was 1000’ that day. The thing is that the 4 man cockpit crew all made the same mistake when reading the Approach Plate and they weren’t Chinese, they were American.
We all need to be careful out there.
It is also not “the most jaw-dropping CFIT in HK aviation history”. Hong Kong has had many such close calls over the years. You just don’t know about them. These days with mobile phone cameras, Flightradar 24 and the internet, everyone has access to the information about such incidents. I personally have had at least a dozen such incidents while working in Hong Kong, including deviation off runway centreline towards terrain at both Kai Tak and Chek Lap Kok, missed approach errors and descent well below glide path, wrong turns on instrument approaches and descent on the glidepath while still not established on the localizer.
The worst for me was in 1986 when a DC10 had a near CFIT in the vicinity of this incident. I had cleared the aircraft for a full IGS approach and was watching the aircraft on our old approach radar. No labels from SSR, just a blip on the radar. I did have beside me however, a long range radar which did have labels, but had to manipulate the radar to get the information. For a reason I don’t know to this day, I called up the label of the DC10 and saw that it was at 1800’ when it should have been at 4500’. The aircraft was in the right turn over SW Lantau to intercept the IGS Localizer. I told the aircraft to climb immediately and nobody could work out how they didn’t hit anything. The GPWS didn’t go off because of the bank angle at the time. The report said that the crew were one step out in the altitude flown for the approach. 1800’ should have been the altitude at the OM. The crew never saw the terrain as the cloud base in Hong Kong was 1000’ that day. The thing is that the 4 man cockpit crew all made the same mistake when reading the Approach Plate and they weren’t Chinese, they were American.
We all need to be careful out there.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BRISBANE
Age: 59
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, I also agree. There is no point to quantify how&what and compare this with that to come to seriousness, let the investigator to find where the holes are. Every incident (accident) has its learning value. BTW, the term "Refresher Training" is a luxury exercise that we don't have that since you left.....others correct me if I am wrong.
We now have job for retiree, no age limit. You definitely deserve an office with a room larger than a senior rank.
We now have job for retiree, no age limit. You definitely deserve an office with a room larger than a senior rank.
I don't think I can quarterback this one, you've gotta know where the cumulogranitis exists. Endex.
That said, the standard of ATC in Kai Tak and early CLK years was outstanding. Some are still holding the torch, and We should support and thank them for that !!
That said, the standard of ATC in Kai Tak and early CLK years was outstanding. Some are still holding the torch, and We should support and thank them for that !!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pollution Zone
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
