The training ban home goal
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We all know that aviation has cycles and it's affected by world events. As mentioned by someone earlier, just a few years ago the upgrade times blew out significantly. Right now we have a period of (unprecedented?) growth but we've decided to put the breaks on that and who knows if the next crisis won't be here soon.
People say "but you'll be working for slave wages"! Guess what, I'm taking a paycut and I'm paying the AOA each month to enforce the paycut for as long as possible. Brilliant!!!!
People say "but you'll be working for slave wages"! Guess what, I'm taking a paycut and I'm paying the AOA each month to enforce the paycut for as long as possible. Brilliant!!!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also noticed Sten appear a couple of weeks ago but being an old hand at this he's managed to disguise himself a bit better than xwindldg.
If xwindldg is an S/O he's seeing one of the shortest upgrade times in our history. If he's a JFO he may be seeing a delay to F/O, offset by the quick upgrade to his current rank. If he's an F/O then he should know better, and if he's an SFO then he's been kicked in the teeth here long enough to know that the delay to his upgrade is worth it.
He's none of the above!
If xwindldg is an S/O he's seeing one of the shortest upgrade times in our history. If he's a JFO he may be seeing a delay to F/O, offset by the quick upgrade to his current rank. If he's an F/O then he should know better, and if he's an SFO then he's been kicked in the teeth here long enough to know that the delay to his upgrade is worth it.
He's none of the above!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly Zapp, but don't you dare be concerned about losing large amounts of money and benefits by having your upgrade delayed or else you will be flamed for being a company man.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Short term low IQ freaking moron.....thats all we hire now....So you take pain now to get a better future for your family ...you dont then you wont have a life or a family.
Booohooo cry when your dumbie is taken away much?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scoreboard,
But we are not even fighting for pay, it's about RP's. Everyone just seems to jump on this bandwagon without even thinking about what it's costing.
But we are not even fighting for pay, it's about RP's. Everyone just seems to jump on this bandwagon without even thinking about what it's costing.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now everyone can see why most pilots don't bother with PPRUNE. XWindldg raises a question and discussion and the rest of you pious , self righteous bullies go for the jugular. Idiots.
I find nearly all the SO's I fly with to be very good. Hard working and helpful. They have all taken a big hit as the HKPA negotiations drag on. Why don't the rest of you better-off pilots show some genuine support instead of trying to shut down debate just because it suits you to do so.
I find nearly all the SO's I fly with to be very good. Hard working and helpful. They have all taken a big hit as the HKPA negotiations drag on. Why don't the rest of you better-off pilots show some genuine support instead of trying to shut down debate just because it suits you to do so.
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: America
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interested, you hit it on the head really! We turn on each other more than any other place I have ever seen. This is perpetuated from within. See, like the company, dysfunction seeks dysfunction. They behave a certain way and so we then behave like them. It's become normal to be morally and ethically corrupt. It's like they almost welcome it as it keeps the place in disarray. I watch a lot of Animal Planet and see how the big cats hunt!
So just imagine if in fact we were united as one force. CC is working but it could be stronger, I believe, if it wasn't for the bust up of the AOA. We need everyone back together to fight the fight. It's not going to happen I am afraid.
Focus people on whom the real problem is. Now is not the time for a piss up. We are at a crossroad. They may smell blood in the water and shove another contract in your mail box. They did it before keep in mind and those that say they will fight will sign it tomorrow!
If you need to fight with someone go to the gym but stop with the childishness please. It's beneath us.
So just imagine if in fact we were united as one force. CC is working but it could be stronger, I believe, if it wasn't for the bust up of the AOA. We need everyone back together to fight the fight. It's not going to happen I am afraid.
Focus people on whom the real problem is. Now is not the time for a piss up. We are at a crossroad. They may smell blood in the water and shove another contract in your mail box. They did it before keep in mind and those that say they will fight will sign it tomorrow!
If you need to fight with someone go to the gym but stop with the childishness please. It's beneath us.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The training ban was supposedly only going to be for a short time and get quick results. "Short term pain for long term gain" was/is the campaign slogan. The company hasn't reacted in the way that was expected so it's time to change course and stop this ban that is affecting the members.
How about a new plan: all captains put in $10k-$20k each month to pay for a lawyer to fight the company over RP's? That's about the cost of what SOs and FOs are paying to keep the training ban going.
How about a new plan: all captains put in $10k-$20k each month to pay for a lawyer to fight the company over RP's? That's about the cost of what SOs and FOs are paying to keep the training ban going.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They have all taken a big hit as the HKPA negotiations drag on. Why don't the rest of you better-off pilots show some genuine support instead of trying to shut down debate just because it suits you to do so.
Seems we have several management trolls on this thread. Keep trying gents, some of us are foolish enough to swallow the load you spew.
"Taking a big hit"
Just where has your renumeration been reduced?
You signed a substandard deal against all advice.
The HKAOA is working to get that deal improved for you and then you attempt to white ant the efforts to restore a negotiated RP agreement so as to expedite a "supposed" increase in HPA.
The terms myopic and conceited come to mind.
I and many others in the AOA are prepared to do what we can to get your HPA increased but be in no doubt your white anting of the goal for a negotiated work practices agreement (read RP's) that will benefit all for the long term will not be held at gunpoint to a minority but vocal self interest group.
Just where has your renumeration been reduced?
You signed a substandard deal against all advice.
The HKAOA is working to get that deal improved for you and then you attempt to white ant the efforts to restore a negotiated RP agreement so as to expedite a "supposed" increase in HPA.
The terms myopic and conceited come to mind.
I and many others in the AOA are prepared to do what we can to get your HPA increased but be in no doubt your white anting of the goal for a negotiated work practices agreement (read RP's) that will benefit all for the long term will not be held at gunpoint to a minority but vocal self interest group.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: the land of chocolate
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Xwindlanding, we we are all suffering in our own way, some more than others, granted.
But do keep in mind that the original a/b scalers are now having their union 'fix' the HKPA situation and spend valuable man hours and spend bargaining leverage in doing so. All because the icadets decided to join with these conditions and then wanting something better. Now is that fair?
The ways we are all chipping in are too numerous to name here, but are largely due to the fact we won't answer the phone, work on g days etc and the disruption of our family lives, loss of flexibility and salary this involves.
But we are all in this together, that is the idea of a union, of which you are part aren't you?
But do keep in mind that the original a/b scalers are now having their union 'fix' the HKPA situation and spend valuable man hours and spend bargaining leverage in doing so. All because the icadets decided to join with these conditions and then wanting something better. Now is that fair?
The ways we are all chipping in are too numerous to name here, but are largely due to the fact we won't answer the phone, work on g days etc and the disruption of our family lives, loss of flexibility and salary this involves.
But we are all in this together, that is the idea of a union, of which you are part aren't you?
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You will have heard that KA has been approached by CX to conduct pilot training for some of their crew and I would like to explain the proposed training and its impact on KA.
The proposal is for CX Second Officers to complete a KA A330 transition course, including skills test, aircraft base training and the first 20 sectors of LFUS, they would then return to CX to complete the remainder of their LFUS and Final Line Check.
Tentatively, the first two pilots will start with the FTC in May and our TC’s will become involved in late June from the Skills Test onwards. LFUS is not likely to commence until the July roster.
It is not known at this stage how many CX pilots will be trained, however any training that takes place will not be to the detriment of our own training requirements, and as such, it will not displace or delay the promotion or movement of any KA pilot. In fact, it will ensure the continued appointment of all of our TC’s as we approach a period of excess training capacity.
I am sure there will be a range of opinions in relation to KA conducting this training, however I would like to highlight the following:
· There are no COS concessions required, our COS does not prevent 3rd party training
· There is past precedent when KA have trained CX pilots on the A320, we have also conducted training for Qantas, Air New Zealand, GFS and the HKCAD
· CX have also trained KA L1011, B747 pilots and one course of KA cadets
· CX FTC completes all KA pilot transition training
· There will be a KA shotgun pilot on board for the 20 sectors, therefore no one will lose out on HDP or EFP
CX currently have a requirement for increased training capacity and, as such, group resources need to be redeployed to maintain the operation. This is no different to CX operating wet leased flights to KHH/TPE when KA has AOG A/C or significant disruption.
The current industrial climate at CX may make this a contentious issue for some. However, please keep in mind that CX Training Captains are continuing to train their own crews and, as a company in the same group which is owned by CX, we cannot justify refusing this reasonable request. Their industrial matters cannot cloud the issue and are for them to work out.
The logistics and actual start dates are still being discussed and should there be any significant changes to this proposal, I will be happy to update you all
The proposal is for CX Second Officers to complete a KA A330 transition course, including skills test, aircraft base training and the first 20 sectors of LFUS, they would then return to CX to complete the remainder of their LFUS and Final Line Check.
Tentatively, the first two pilots will start with the FTC in May and our TC’s will become involved in late June from the Skills Test onwards. LFUS is not likely to commence until the July roster.
It is not known at this stage how many CX pilots will be trained, however any training that takes place will not be to the detriment of our own training requirements, and as such, it will not displace or delay the promotion or movement of any KA pilot. In fact, it will ensure the continued appointment of all of our TC’s as we approach a period of excess training capacity.
I am sure there will be a range of opinions in relation to KA conducting this training, however I would like to highlight the following:
· There are no COS concessions required, our COS does not prevent 3rd party training
· There is past precedent when KA have trained CX pilots on the A320, we have also conducted training for Qantas, Air New Zealand, GFS and the HKCAD
· CX have also trained KA L1011, B747 pilots and one course of KA cadets
· CX FTC completes all KA pilot transition training
· There will be a KA shotgun pilot on board for the 20 sectors, therefore no one will lose out on HDP or EFP
CX currently have a requirement for increased training capacity and, as such, group resources need to be redeployed to maintain the operation. This is no different to CX operating wet leased flights to KHH/TPE when KA has AOG A/C or significant disruption.
The current industrial climate at CX may make this a contentious issue for some. However, please keep in mind that CX Training Captains are continuing to train their own crews and, as a company in the same group which is owned by CX, we cannot justify refusing this reasonable request. Their industrial matters cannot cloud the issue and are for them to work out.
The logistics and actual start dates are still being discussed and should there be any significant changes to this proposal, I will be happy to update you all
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cathay Pacific have notified Dragonair that 2 pilots will be trained in a “trial” on KA aircraft for upgrades from Second to Junior First Officer.
This training will be taking place as a direct consequence of the AOA’s current “Taining Captain promotion ban”. As such, the DPA have very real concerns about the effect this has on our members and the potential ill will between the associations.
The Dragonair CEO Algernon Yau had assured us previously that the terms of the training would be clear, and the terms of compensations agreed to, as it has been in the past. These points are yet to be raised with us.
Though there has been a history of participating in training with Cathay Pacific and other third parties in the past, that hasn't been in the climate of Contract Compliance and was after discussion and agreement on terms. It would seem that the withdrawal of good will that is stifling progress in Cathay Pacific is filtering into its use of Dragonair so soon after our symbolic change of name.
The Company have stated that there will be no detriment to Dragonair pilots as a result of this proposed training. However, the hours lost to First Officers who are supervising but not flying will impact progression should this program be extended, and Cathay Pacific trainers are paid an allowance for this training that our Captains are not receiving. These are just a couple of immediate disadvantages.
The DPAC must satisfy itself that the interests of its members are protected including the relationships we share with the AOA with whom we have mutually beneficial interests. We have shared our concerns with the AOA and are in talks for a protocol for mutual trust and assistance.
Thank you for your continued support.
DPA 2015/2016 Committee
'Your Voice is Our Support'
This training will be taking place as a direct consequence of the AOA’s current “Taining Captain promotion ban”. As such, the DPA have very real concerns about the effect this has on our members and the potential ill will between the associations.
The Dragonair CEO Algernon Yau had assured us previously that the terms of the training would be clear, and the terms of compensations agreed to, as it has been in the past. These points are yet to be raised with us.
Though there has been a history of participating in training with Cathay Pacific and other third parties in the past, that hasn't been in the climate of Contract Compliance and was after discussion and agreement on terms. It would seem that the withdrawal of good will that is stifling progress in Cathay Pacific is filtering into its use of Dragonair so soon after our symbolic change of name.
The Company have stated that there will be no detriment to Dragonair pilots as a result of this proposed training. However, the hours lost to First Officers who are supervising but not flying will impact progression should this program be extended, and Cathay Pacific trainers are paid an allowance for this training that our Captains are not receiving. These are just a couple of immediate disadvantages.
The DPAC must satisfy itself that the interests of its members are protected including the relationships we share with the AOA with whom we have mutually beneficial interests. We have shared our concerns with the AOA and are in talks for a protocol for mutual trust and assistance.
Thank you for your continued support.
DPA 2015/2016 Committee
'Your Voice is Our Support'
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In front of the PC
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whats the rush with getting an upgrade???
If I am not mistaken, most senior F/O's are on bypass pay anyway, so whilst you are not sitting in the left seat calling the shots, you getting the money.
And, I would imagine, the same might apply to some S/O's awaiting a seat change???
So the only loser here is the company..... sit back relax, grab a fistful of popcorn and enjoy the show!!
If I am not mistaken, most senior F/O's are on bypass pay anyway, so whilst you are not sitting in the left seat calling the shots, you getting the money.
And, I would imagine, the same might apply to some S/O's awaiting a seat change???
So the only loser here is the company..... sit back relax, grab a fistful of popcorn and enjoy the show!!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The BA roadshow on Saturday is confirmed to be a busy affair. Contact in BA tells me they have over 250 confirmed enquiries from CX crew. Apparently the genius's in our management believe aircraft fly themselves. To ALL of you planning on leaving for BA, best wishes. You'll be shocked and gratified at the differences of working for a 'real' airline.
