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Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.


Old 16th Jun 2015, 06:48
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: WORLD
Age: 50
Posts: 955

A few years ago' I did a PC at LH and got the B744 TR/IR on my UK JAA ATPL and then had it converted to EASA.
TR/IR are now expired, is anybody keeping their license valid through CX flying ?
Care to share details before I start a never ending useless correspondence with UK CAA ?
Thanks for your help
bufe01 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 07:02
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Honkytown
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Expedited EASA TR/IR

From what I and other colleagues have found, the most expeditious method of putting a foreign Boeing TR/IR on to a UK/EASA license is:

Come back in a second life
Wait until you're 18
Do an integrated ATPL course
Do a few jobs until you get hired by a 744 carrier
Get 744 rating on license

Hope this helps.
McNugget is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 07:09
  #3 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 284
Oh very dear..I was hoping to do same on my CAA..yes..CAA ATPL that fell over 2005...looks like I'll have wait till I'm 18 again...
Pucka is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 08:35
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I did a PC at Virgin Atlantic in 2011 and got the 747-400 rating on my JAA ATPL. Not sure where I stand regarding EASA so would be interested to hear anybody else's experiences.

The Cav
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Old 16th Jun 2015, 10:09
  #5 (permalink)  
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Please see below a de-identified reply from the UK CAA received in May 2015. I trust this may assist you in your endeavour.

There is provision in the EU Regulations for a rating held on a 3rd country (non-EU) licence to be added to a Part-FCL licence and to be used to fly aircraft of that type that are registered in the EU.

The requirements may be found in Annex III to Regulation 1178/2011. This is reproduced, together with other information in our publication CAP 804, which is on our website at:

CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing | Publications | About the CAA

Section 4, Part Q of CAP 804 includes the following:

(1) A valid class or type rating contained in a licence issued by a third country may be inserted in a Part-FCL licence provided that the applicant:

(a) complies with the experience requirements and the prerequisites for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;

(b) passes the relevant skill test for the issue of the applicable type or class rating in accordance with Part-FCL;

(c) is in current flying practice;

(d) has no less than:
(i) for aeroplane class ratings, 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that class;
(ii) for aeroplane type ratings, 500 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type;
(iii) for single-engine helicopters with a maximum certificated take-off mass of up to 3 175 kg, 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type;
(iv) for all other helicopters, 350 hours of flight experience as a pilot in that type.

You will have to ensure that the examiner complies with our procedures as per IN 2014/114: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Informa...ice2014114.pdf for non-UK examiners or IN 2014/110 for UK examiners: IN-2014/110: Designation of UK Examiners for Skill Tests for Initial Issue of Licences, Ratings and Certificates | Publications | About the CAA

The simulator to be used must have a JAR-FCL/Part-FCL approval as well.

When you apply, we will need:

Forms SRG1119A, SRG 1158 and SRG 2199: List of Flight Crew Licensing Forms | Publications | About the CAA with the associated fee of 119
Copies of ICAO licence and associated medical certified by a UK examiner or Head of Fleet
If your ICAO licence does not show the validity of dates of ratings, please submit certified copies of the relevant logbook pages that confirm the currency of the ratings. In addition we also require a letter of verification of the licence from the issuing NAA.
Original logbook
Copies of simulator approval
If you are using a non-UK EASA examiner, certified copies of the examiner's licence, medical and certificate
Copy of your UK issued licence

All information provided is based on the requirements and regulation as at the date of this email. Our telephone operators will respond to routine administration enquires, however technical enquiries should be submitted in writing. Our telephone lines are open from 8.30am and 16.30pm.
Your co-operation is appreciated.

Kind Regards

Flight Crew Technical Support Officer
Personnel Licensing, Shared Service Centre
UK Civil Aviation Authority
Tel: +44 (0)1293 573700

Welcome to the UK Civil Aviation Authority.
Follow us on Twitter: @UK_CAA
Strewth is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 11:13
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Alternative method

BA Careers - Direct Entry Pilots
swh is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 11:26
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You need a valid rating to apply.
Threethirty is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 11:41
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Thread Starter
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Location: WORLD
Age: 50
Posts: 955
Thanks 330.
That is exactly what I did to get the TR/IR on the then JAA license.
I had the same TR/IR transcribed on my EASA license on conversion.
Questions are:
Do I need to take another sim (Easa approved sim and examiner) to get a renewal ?
Even then can I keep it current with CX flying as some other countries allow ?
bufe01 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 11:43
  #9 (permalink)  

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Current type rating.
swh is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 11:47
  #10 (permalink)  
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Bufe01, a rating is only valid for one year. No Cathay flying won't keep you current.
Threethirty is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2015, 14:50
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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The situation has changed significantly with the introduction of EASA Part FCL. This summarises the requirements of the new licence,

1. For a start, there is no requirement to hold a current rating to keep the licence current. In fact, the licence is valid for life, providing you can keep your medical.

2. EASA ratings are only valid for a year.

3. Your EASA licence has a section for previously held ratings and any expired ratings will require enough training as deemed necessary by an Authorised Training Organisation. If you are current on a type on another ICAO licence, then this will probably simply entail taking a Licence Skills Test (LST).

4. If you need to put another ICAO type on your licence not previously held, then see the answer provided by Strewth. You will require a letter from your current employer showing that you are in current practice and stating hours on type, in addition to a course completion certificate to show you have completed a recognised groundschool.

5. A prospective employer may be persuaded to do the LST for you as they will have to do a Licence Proficiency Check (LPC) anyway and the only additional item is a raw data approach.

6. If in the position of having to have an EASA type rating to start the job, this is not insurmountable. Get the letters from the company and get in touch with an ATO who can issue the type rating. You will have to use an ATO, using a mate who is a TRE is no longer acceptable. But it's certain your mate works for an ATO, so he can probably organise it.

7. If not planning to use the type rating, then there's no point in getting it and/or keeping it current as they only last a year and have to renewed by an annual LPC in an EASA approved sim with an EASA TRE.

In addition, it's useful to know what to do if you currently hold a JAR type licence. It will have been issued for 5 years, which means the last to be issued will expire in about another two. The EASA licence can be issued with any of the agencies, but the definition of which one is where your medical records are held. Each agency follows PART FCL, so in theory, there should be little difference between them. However, practice has shown there are subtle differences. The UK CAA transfers your ATPL without question on submission of the appropriate form and fee.

However, the one sticking point has been the ICAO language proficiency. They won't accept the proficiency level on your HK licence as it wasn't assessed by an EASA assessor. You probably have 'Proficient' on your JAR licence which essentially means level 4 and which lasts 4 years, so it will probably have expired. Some language schools used to do English tests on Skype, but the CAA don't accept these as from April 1st, as it appears there has been some fraud! The form does say that the British Council can recommend an approved school to do the test face to face, but when I contacted the BC in HK, they of course knew nothing about it. They are in contact with the CAA for guidance, but as of now, there is no way of doing the test outside Europe. Another way is to get an EASA examiner to assess you during a test. Any TRE can do this and sign you off providing he is level 6 himself, so this can be done as part of your LST.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2015, 12:48
  #12 (permalink)  
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A number of us at Emirates have got our EASA ATPLs issued in Ireland, who make the licensing process a hell of a lot more straight forward, than dealing with the UK CAA.
Emma Royds is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2015, 03:21
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Thanks a lot Dan.
This is the sort of information I was after .
That was my general understand of the rules as well.
Thanks to Strewth as well.
bufe01 is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2015, 07:13
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I recently converted my UK CAA 'National' licence to an EASA licence and found the whole thing really quite straight forward and the CAA very amiable, realistic and helpful Among the type ratings on my 'National' licence I had my current type but I had not flown it on the UK licence for quite some time (about 15 years).

If converting from JAR to EASA it really is a matter of having a current type rating signed by an EASA TRE, an EASA Class 1 medical and, as alluded to above, language proficiency > 4. Converting from a 'National' licence wasn't that much more involved, only requiring another form to be filled in and a bit more money for a new licence. The JAR licence is swapped one-for-one with an EASA one and doesn't need to be paid for.

Dan's post is excellent and covers everything. The only thing I might say is that No.3 might only require you to pass an LPC, rather than an LST, depending on how long ago your EASA type rating lapsed. There seems to be an unwritten (???) 'rule' that > 3 years requires an LST but I couldn't find anything in the book and, since it's only the addition of a raw data approach anyway, I really could't be arsed to argue and just did an LST.

Might I suggest you contact BA Flight Training if you are considering this. They really were very good and did exactly what I needed to do without any money-making extras added on. I contacted another well known training provider who insisted that in order for them to sign my course completion certificate they required me to undergo 8 hours of 'training' before I could sit the LST. Remember that I am flying the type that was already on my UK licence and I am not flying for some tin pot operator in darkest Africa. These people were simply taking the piss and making up unrealistic numbers to bolster their coffers. BA saw that I was current on type and did the LST straight away. The TRE signed my English proficiency application there and then and I'm glad to say I was allowed a 6 I'd already done an EASA class 1 medical and nipped off to the Belgrano the next morning. About 1.5 hours later I left with an EASA ATPL, my current type as my current type rating in the front of the licence and all my old type ratings listed in the 'expired' list.

I spoke to the bloke dealing with my licence at the time and enquired about getting a new type put on my EASA licence once we start flying them and he confirmed what is written above i.e. EASA Class 1 medical, >500 hours, EASA LST and an application form/fee.

And finally, as Dan said, he confirmed there is no requirement to keep the type rating current unless you're going to need it for a job application etc and even then it seems pretty daft to do an LPC every year 'just in case'. If you need your licence to be 'current' then simply do an EASA Class 1 medical and an LPC/LST (depending on how long ago your type rating expired) and you're good to go.

Far from the doom an gloom purported by McNugget I found the whole process very straightforward and, using BA, relatively inexpensive..........although that would not have been so much the case with a certain training provider whose name entails rearranging 3 of the first 5 letters of the alphabet
Pontius is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2015, 17:37
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
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Thanks Pontius, I wasn't aware that a three year lapse may only require a LST. I didn't see it in CAP804.

Link for those suffering from insomnia: https://www.caa.co.uk/application.as...detail&id=6412

A number of us at Emirates have got our EASA ATPLs issued in Ireland, who make the licensing process a hell of a lot more straight forward, than dealing with the UK CAA.
Many from HKG did as well, but that was when the CAA were being a bit silly with their interpretation of the rules during the JAR to EASA transition period, such as the 7 year IR currency. Now, they are following EASA Part FCL word for word and the whole process has become very straightforward. Ironically, when I was in Aviation house a few weeks ago, there were a number of French registered cars in the car park. It turns out several French pilots were having ratings put on their EASA licences by the CAA as the DGAC take a while to add a rating which means the pilot cannot work until it's returned by post a couple of weeks later. The CAA can add them on the same day!

Last edited by Dan Winterland; 21st Jun 2015 at 19:18. Reason: spilling
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2015, 18:42
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 145
A skill test is only undertaken by candidates for the issue of a licence or rating. For those intending to revalidate or renew a rating, irrespective of how long the rating has lapsed, the requirement is to undergo a proficiency check.

FCL.010 refers.
Pete O'Tewbe is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2015, 07:07
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: sand box
Posts: 128
My UK ATPL expired in 2010 and for the last 12 years I have been flying on a UAE ATPL. I am now one of the many looking for a move back to Europe over the next couple of years so I am looking to get an EASA licence. The CAA website does not appear to give a definite answer if I am able to convert an expired UK ATPL to an EASA. Has anyone done this??
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