Real world hiring standards

[404 Titan]

SWH

I thought there are 50 QF 767 drivers starting in Jan as DESOs ? I guess a half dozen years on the 767 regional jet is not a real world hiring standard.

I've checked with a number of my mates who fly for Qantas, some are directly effected by the retirement of the B767 and B747. All have been offered slots on the B737, A330 and A380. Rumours are rife in the QF pilot ranks at the moment but this rumour is news to them. I'm not saying that CX hasn't interviewed some of their pilots, but the mass exodus from QF to CX is a rumour without foundation.

[swh]

Qantas targets 300 pilots for redundancy

[jacobus]

"I thought I'd deploy flaps in the cruise, then retract the lever immediately..Telling the skipper, I didn't do anything" or
I thought I'd invite some pax in to the flight deck in the cruise..whilst no one else is in here..
from a fleet forum...

[Veruka Salt]

SWH:

Exactly 2 ex-QF drivers have joined CX in the past 8 years; 1, a 767 F/O; the other, a classic S/O. Both joined as Airbus DEFOs on oz bases on CoS99.

Given that CX was unable to attract any more QF guys with CoS99, it's unlikely they'll get them on CoS08 or cadet S/O pay.

I think the most junior QF 767 F/O has around 10 years seniority, so won't be joining CX anytime soon to sit in the backseat on unlivable pay with 12 years to a command. They go to to to Jetstar for command via the MOU, the likes of Qatar for a quick command, or take a demotion to S/O on the -A380 and enjoy the pay and lifestyle improvement.

[swh]

V/S,

Don't shoot the messenger. Just posted what I heard. Their A380 fleet is already overcrewed.

Last flight for the 767 fleet will be December 27. There are no magical jobs in QF for these guys. If they choose virgin, jetstar, tiger, chinese, or sand pit operator to work for that will be their choice. All have different pros and cons.

If they go to Jetstar under the mou and get a command they have to resign, if they go to the Middle East they can take LWOP. However there is already a lot of pilots on LWOP, not sure if there unlimited capacity for that.

[Veruka Salt]

Sorry SWH .... not having a go at you.

The retirement of the 767 will be a very sad occasion; there is still no suitable replacement for it on the domestic network. The surplus of 767 crew has been known for quite a while though, and managed through reduction-in-numbers etc.

QF seem adept at 'hiding' excess crew via LWOP, VR or transfer to shorthaul. So long as the mainline airline contracts, that day of reckoning is getting closer. But the guys to cop the initial redundancies will be well junior to 767 drivers.

I just think CX are completely delusional of their ability to attract anyone to HK on the package on offer now, other than the inexperienced or desperate. It's far down the list of aspirations for QF people now.

Such a shame.

[swh]

V/S,

I think you are miss guided. When the 767 finished, QF is entirely in their right to make redundant crew on that fleet that are senior to those on other fleets. A year 5 SO on the A380 is a safer position than a 767/747 crew member.

[404 Titan]

swh

I'm very well aware of the QF pilot proposed redundancies announced publicly. You want to know how many QF pilots have been made redundant though? 0. A very large number have taken leave without pay and gone to the Middle East while others are being retrained onto other fleets, in particular the B737.

My personal opinion is that while redundancies are needed and have started to occur at QF, the 5000 total redundancies including 300 pilots announced by QF management was a figure pulled out of their butts to scare the Federal Government to bail them out of their financial mess. The problem for QF management though is that the government didn't flinch and management has overplayed their hand.

[pilotchute]

Is this the Fragrant Harbour forum or not?

[404 Titan]

Pilotchute

If you go back to post #24 you would realise it has everything to do with "The Fragrant Harbour" forum.

[8driver]

Gosh how I love the 'there I was a 5000' at 180knots in my POS dodging thunderstorms and therefore I'm better than you' stories.

Guess that was directed at me Kmagyoyo. I wasn't talking about myself. I was simply pointing out that flying night, single pilot, IFR in a light twin can be some of the most challenging flying out there. All raw data, plenty of STARS and SIDS, approaches to minimums, no autopilot, all sorts of summer and winter weather. Those guys have a good scan rate and are easy to train.

My intention was not to get into a civilian vs. military thread. The comparison to JetBlue is just not a good one. They are a US domestic carrier, not even a top of the line job anymore. They attract the experience level they attract due to the market saturation even though many of the guys won't stay there. Cathay has to pay enough to attract people to come to HKG, and they aren't offering enough to get that experience level. Cathay is an overseas job, and JetBlue isn't, so guys with a lot of hours apply there although they will initially make less than our new S/Os.

Its not all doom and gloom. I've heard the S/O horror stories but I haven't run into that myself, and I fly with them a lot. You don't need a million PIC hours somewhere to come in here doing cruise relief and be trainable to upgrade. DEFOs are a different story. That doesn't mean I agree with what the company has done recruiting S/Os on lesser conditions, because I don't. They need to pay to attract people who will make it a career here, and they aren't doing that now.

[kmagyoyo]

I was simply pointing out that flying night, single pilot, IFR in a light twin can be some of the most challenging flying out there. All raw data, plenty of STARS and SIDS, approaches to minimums, no autopilot, all sorts of summer and winter weather. Those guys have a good scan rate and are easy to train.

Totally agree, if only we had the proper DESO package to attract these guys.

Personally I find small talk at 3am way harder than any of that raw data sh!t

[uspilot]

so guys with a lot of hours apply there although they will initially make less than our new S/Os.

Your above information is not correct. Under DESO package I would have agreed with you, but not under this new Icadet program.

[pilotchute]

404,

Post 25# says its a rumour without foundation. Why on earth would a current Qantas 767 pilot even consider CX?

[Veruka Salt]

I think you are miss guided. When the 767 finished, QF is entirely in their right to make redundant crew on that fleet that are senior to those on other fleets. A year 5 SO on the A380 is a safer position than a 767/747 crew member.

Incorrect SWH. I've confirmed with 2 x QF colleagues, one of whom is on the committee that, no, QF cannot make crew redundant out of seniority just because a particular fleet is winding down. There is a contractual process to follow, and it is based on seniority.

A 5th year A380 S/O is in a much precarious position than someone senior to him/her on another fleet. By way of example, one of the most junior -400 F/Os has almost 20 years seniority in the company. To imply that 'QF is entirely in their right to make redundant crew ... that are senior to those on other fleets' is a very long bow to draw.

Back to the original thread.

[404 Titan]

Pilotchute

I think you have clearly missed the point. This is a strategically planted rumour by the third floor, probably through the fleet forums to intimidate us with the CC vote coming up. I've heard this rumour several times now including the one that they will be employed directly onto a base. A little investigating with some mates at QF and knowing that if the Australian bases were reopened today they would be swamped by Hong Kong based Australian pilots wanting a base confirms this is a rumour without foundation which is very applicable to every CX pilot.

[McNugget]

USPilot

Not to argue the non-monetary merits of either, but a new iCadet will, averaged over his first year, make about US$7000 a month, plus a few hundred in allowances (700-1000).

I think to earn the equivalent at JB, you're a few years up the ladder. Happy to be corrected, however.

JB does have the potential to be another US industry darling, a great lifestyle job or of course , be acquired by a legacy carrier. But, as it stands, career earnings there are substantially lower than a CX iCadet.

[pilotchute]

Nugget,

With allowances the cadet salary is more like 6k US a month. Take out the over 2k USD for rent every month (for by US standards a tiny apartment) they you are left with about 3.5k. After expenses and other things takes it down to 2.5k. This is great if you are single. If you have bills at home or kids to send to school then you are going to struggle.

Titan I see your concern but this is a thread about hiring standards, not voting on CC. How many times have you guys voted on CC now?

[McNugget]

I didn't say that, at all, Rod. Your comprehension has failed you.

I merely included them, because in the US, per diem is normally included on one's payslip, as a function of hours spent away from base - rather than in cash at the hotel. Thus, it's worth noting that one's payslip from JB/AA/etc will be 'artificially' higher than the hourly rate/salary would suggest.

Pilotchute;

I'm not disagreeing with you, or saying the lifestyle is better. I was very clear in my assertion that SALARY is far higher at CX.

With an all-but-guaranteed 13th month, year 1 averages out at 6.8k USD. In my first year, it was in the region of 7.5 due overtime most months. That is (quite rightly) net of allowances.

Enough to raise and educate a family in HK? Not in my opinion. But, my opinion is just that, and nothing to do with this thread. I'd be delighted to share my views if so desired, however.

[404 Titan]

pilotchute

Titan I see your concern but this is a thread about hiring standards, not voting on CC.

The point is CX management have started a rumour that they are employing 50+ experienced pilots from Qantas on a base and in Hong Kong on local conditions during a time when we are trying to negotiate improvements to our CoS and raise the experience level of pilots recruited by the company.

How many times have you guys voted on CC now?

This would imply you aren't an HKAOA member or judging from your previous posts even a pilot with CX, in which case, why are you even making a comment on a thread that has nothing to do with you?