Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

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Old 13th Oct 2014, 11:14
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Honkytown
Posts: 205
You really haven't understood a word I've written, have you, Chinabeached?

Not to worry, I was writing about something that was of concern to MY colleagues.

To surmise; I offered neither advice nor opinion. I voiced an opinion within a conversation. As it happens, my opinion is shared by a majority of the workforce. Hence the vote result.

But don't go worrying your pretty little head about it. It doesn't concern you.

Instead, just bugger off, you sorry little loser.
McNugget is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 11:17
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 9
CB Given you don't even work for Cathay, why do you get so intense about those who joined on C scale? You made your decision and chose to reject the offer of employment to you from CX. We know the reasons having read your posts.
You are obviously happy with that choice. Why not respect the choices that others made, albeit they did so for reasons contrary to your beliefs.
lpuk is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 13:57
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 330
1st of all, the best word used was "respect". So where is it shown when you defend what C-Scale is, what it stands for and the undeniable pressure it places on current T & C's for the rest of the pilot body? AND, like LCC's, the plague of the "Race to the Bottom" has a follow on affect throughout the industry. I've personally sat with a former CP & other legacy airline pilots who have said (to paraphrase) "If CX can get away with it who's to say [they] won't try to implement it here??"

By and large I do stay away from this forum, however what I see is in these recent debates by and large is disgraceful. It's obvious that C-Scalers are becoming more prevalent here & in numbers. Hence the staunch defence of what they agreed to. What is so pathetic is now they wish to get on some podium to defend better conditions when they willingly became part of the greatest threat to CX's T & C's ever!??

Ipuk you wrote:
....but maybe some initial sacrifices are necessary to "follow the dream" of becoming a pilot
And to what extent should we say these sacrifices are necessary? Crap on your colleagues conditions of employment and place an undeniable threat to their livlihoods? From your past posts you defend and advocate this: your words, not mine. This is why I am so passionate against C-Scale. They defend the undefendable and then have the audacity / hypocrisy to offer opinions as to how and why they should get a better deal, "market forces", "lean workforce", etc, etc all the while it is THEY who were the greatest contributor to the cause of the present situation!? How can these opinions and actions be "respected"?

McNugget, "YOUR" colleagues by and large see YOU as a plague on the airline. You are tolerated as you must. Can you sit there and tell me that any pilot wanted to see you come and accept C-Scale and hence place these pressures on their CoS????? Can you be that ignorant? If "YOUR" colleagues had their way they wouldn't want to see "YOU" exist in CX in the first place, let alone "US" in the wider international airline industry.

You honestly think for 1 second a guy who is willing to do it for far less, with less experience or credentials than past applicants is wanted anywhere? I know your answer though: you think "WE" do. And that's the problem.

Where do you think I get all the information from? Close friends of mine at CX on B-Scale who send me the AOA updates, who chat to me about how they fear for their financial security & future at CX as a result, who tell me tales of the whining SO in the cockpit crying crocodile tears about how tough it is to live on a C-Scale salary, to save, how they're going "run to EK" as soon as they can..... "YOUR" colleagues are the ones talking this way over drinks & catch-ups in outstations & via email conversations.

What you people refuse to appreciate is that these things manifest and spread. You think these things don't affect other sectors of the industry, other airlines....???

Hugo: "Plonker" is about the level of grey matter your post and previous posts have all been about. Mostly aggressive and abusive language in short paraphrased diatribes. So there's no ill feeling when I see you were incapable of piecing together a constructive reply.

It wasn't me who crapped on "my" colleagues in the industry in general by accepting a remuneration package FAR below the airline norm (and which was implemented in a year of record profits).

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 13th Oct 2014 at 14:38.
ChinaBeached is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 15:08
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Honkytown
Posts: 205
Hahaha. I must admit to not reading a word of that.

I merely looked at the magnitude of it, and burst out laughing. Your psychosis is acute.

You need help.
McNugget is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 22:54
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 3
LOL CB, you are friends with B scalers? You do realise that they, by accepting jobs at CX, allowed CX to get away with scrapping A scale and drove conditions down for the industry?
Freehills is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2014, 23:56
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Now, now Freehills, stop pointing out the one major flaw in CB's argument and play nicely.

Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2014, 00:45
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Asia
Posts: 92
Regarding your #40 post McNugget.. Your ideas there are eminently sensible but accountants cannot account for goodwill so it doesn't exist in the modern world. They can only account for flights full of paying passengers departing or not departing. We will never win that argument with this company.

Regarding our inflation protection, I realise that others have got 4%, or similar, pay rises and the pilots have not. It's one of my main frustrations, but USD inflation is more like 10% pa. That's what is required as a pay rise to protect spending power and we will not get it.
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Old 14th Oct 2014, 01:03
  #48 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,066
They cannot send 2 crew to Aus where there is currently 3. I'd love them to try that with us on the base subject to EBA discussions and good faith etc.....

Bring it on.....
Close the base?
parabellum is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2014, 01:23
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Honkytown
Posts: 205

I agree that if it can't be measured on a spreadsheet, it doesn't exist. However, such manifestations of a loss of good will do become measurable - overtime payments of reserve sitters (who now have to be used) and parked aircraft. If you believe the rumours, both are abundantly apparent.

Regarding your second point - I agree entirely.
McNugget is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2014, 02:59
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Here and There
Posts: 167
"Those disputing, contradicting, and confuting people are generally unfortunate in their affairs. They get victory, sometimes, but they never get good will, which would be of more use to them."

Benjamin Franklin
Avius is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2014, 12:53
  #51 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
The REALLY GOOD thing about the path we have chosen is folks will have a first hand and honest view of how and what the shape of the company will be for the next 10 or 15 years. And of how they respond when forced to negotiate.

YOUNGER MEMBERS--burn everything that happens over the next 6 to 9 months into your memory--good and bad. Make an independent assessment devoid of all the rhetoric.

And use what happens now as an indication of what your overall plan would be. If things go OK, it might be worth it to stay around in what can be a wonderful job. If things go poorly ask yourself "do I want to spend the next 20 years of my life in this situation ?" No one is ever trapped in any job, but some trap themselves by thinking they are.

IF we can come together and act as responsible adults; coming up with a mutually beneficial inflation adjustment to our pay, decent rostering, and universal housing/pay for the HKG based officers (potentially after a short period of apprenticeship) then this could well be a very good place to make a career. The job is great, the people one works with as well, and one gets to travel and see places other folks have to pay to see. Notwithstanding some normal spats in the give and take if the overall vector is upward and toward an agreement that benefits everyone then it's probably worth sticking around.

If there's punitive rostering, intimidation, stonewalling, adversarial roles in everything, and a general "Bring Boston Harbor to it's Knees" approach toward negotiating then it's probably better to look at this as a temp job to build time and get ratings to work elsewhere as soon as possible. Make this commitment also despite whatever 'enticements' might be thrown at you after the smoke clears. A company that spirals downward in how it treats its workers will spiral downward in every other respect as well. The workers of any company are its most valuable capital asset.

In any case, the true character of whom one deals with is brought out under times of stress and difficulty. Anyone can mind the helm when the sea is calm.

New and upgrading SOs, FOs, and many captains have a lot of career choices and this could be one of them. Take a long term view--stay in a job you like, plan to leave a job you don't. Our most precious resource in life is time.
Shep69 is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 00:44
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,802
"Close the base"

Oh god, not that again!!
ACMS is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 02:20
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kowloon
Posts: 289
Just to digress, at least we dont dress like m-rons

Soul planet is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 06:21
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 3
? You think supporting more democracy in HK is moronic? Foolish maybe to take on Beijing, but I wouldn't call them morons
Freehills is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 06:21
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: VHHH
Posts: 127
Soul Planet,

Do you know what the yellow ribbons are for?
Guru is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 10:07
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hong Kong SAR
Age: 76
Posts: 292
Guru - where have you been?

Yellow ribbons
The original symbol can be seen adorning thousands of lapels in Hong Kong and around the world for people wanting to show support for the Occupy movement.
Yellow ribbons have also been tied to fences and trees around the city, with protesters using Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree as a protest song.

CISTRS is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 11:31
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: VHHH
Posts: 127
You should direct the question to Soul planet.
Guru is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2014, 12:21
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hong Kong SAR
Age: 76
Posts: 292
Comment accepted.
No worries...
CISTRS is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2014, 05:28
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 137
With Ebola lurking (now on an aircraft), maybe we should have taken the offer; before the industry collapses and CX "asks" us for SLS again.
This is cyclical industry. Never turn down free cash. Or are we waiting till next summer when another pay offer is given - with no back pay.
Shouldn't be cynical, of course CX will cave and offer us 8/8/8 across all bases. But that still wouldn't make some people happy. What will?
4 driver is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2014, 09:43
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
Contract compliance....wait ...I can almost hear the managers laughing from here! I'm afraid we are not as smart as we think we are!
Frogman1484 is offline  

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