Rostering Insanity!
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To my knowledge, split duty's was approved by CAD during a time when the growth of aircraft numbers filled parking space at Kai Tak. Approval was given for split duty's to relief parking bays. Due to the obvious advantages CX management just let it roll over when Chek Lap Kok opened, by which time it was seen as "normal" to crews.
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Many airlines have agreements with their unions allowing split duties, but the contract wording just talking about split (continuous, stand up, etc). Is thicker than our entire contract! Normally, individual pilots would have to nominate themselves to do split duties, and the credit is based on half the duty. I.e, 12 hours duty = 6 hours pay, even if you only fly to TPE and back. Seems reasonable to me.
Flying Phoenix
With all due respect it isn’t a split duty. Silberfuchs is quite correct and I strongly advise you to re-read 7.1.14.3 Para A again very closely. It only becomes a split duty when the rest in the hotel is used to extend the FDP. In this case it isn’t and is only a Normal FDP. The company could legally leave us at the airport if they wanted to. While I personally don’t like the pattern, 2-3 hours in the hotel is far better than sitting around the airport which is a dump. Having said all that if the flight is delayed and normal FDP needs to be extended, CC can advise you it is now a Split Duty and your max FDP is now 12:45 hrs/mins as long as you had 3 hrs in the hotel.
Sorry it is a split duty. That's the only legal way around this.
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404:
3 hrs in the hotel
Sometimes that's the same as "in the hotel" and other times it can mean "in the room".
All comes down to the definition of "rest" and "repose", I guess. My dictionary says it means "dignified calmness" or "absence of movement". I don't think I have ever experienced that in Manila!
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In the case of split duty, it pretty much means in the room. I.e. Excludes travelling time, post and pre flight duties.
Not convinced you can turn a regular duty into a split duty. The regular duty is just that and doesn't include any rest. #justsaying
In the case of split duty, it pretty much means in the room. I.e. Excludes travelling time, post and pre flight duties.
Not convinced you can turn a regular duty into a split duty. The regular duty is just that and doesn't include any rest. #justsaying
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404titan
As you correctly said - it is not a split.
The flight can be delayed about 5hrs without using Split duty provisions or discretion. Eg using the original posters times and keeping it all Local, signon at 850pm - 5hr delay so new pushback time 3am - blocks on MIA 5am. Original MIA departure blocks was 520am - say it is delayed to 6am(ie one hr turnaround) - you blocks on HK at 8am. That is 11:10 minutes after signon. Duty allowed 11:15(acclimatised)
So there is no way you can use split duty to recover a delay in this case! I am sure you can extrapolate from the above to see that!
ok4wire
Rest is defined as sleep or repose, but under the Split duty provisions it is all time that is NOT pre/post flight duties or traveling. So walk in to walk out of the hotel.
Lastly - FDP is from signon to blocks on - not end of duty. That starts 30mins(usually) after blocks on.
As I said I am using the original posters times - I can't recall what the usual block to block time is nor pattern timing but you get the idea.
clear as mud?
As you correctly said - it is not a split.
The flight can be delayed about 5hrs without using Split duty provisions or discretion. Eg using the original posters times and keeping it all Local, signon at 850pm - 5hr delay so new pushback time 3am - blocks on MIA 5am. Original MIA departure blocks was 520am - say it is delayed to 6am(ie one hr turnaround) - you blocks on HK at 8am. That is 11:10 minutes after signon. Duty allowed 11:15(acclimatised)
So there is no way you can use split duty to recover a delay in this case! I am sure you can extrapolate from the above to see that!
ok4wire
Rest is defined as sleep or repose, but under the Split duty provisions it is all time that is NOT pre/post flight duties or traveling. So walk in to walk out of the hotel.
Lastly - FDP is from signon to blocks on - not end of duty. That starts 30mins(usually) after blocks on.
As I said I am using the original posters times - I can't recall what the usual block to block time is nor pattern timing but you get the idea.
clear as mud?
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 26th Sep 2014 at 12:31. Reason: speeeling
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This discussion illustrates how many pilots don’t know the difference between a normal duty and split duty.
Pilots can fly airplanes but sure are dumb on paperwork and industrial matters and we like to keep it that way.
Very few pilots keep track of their duty day and don’t know the FDP limits. I’m sure many don’t know the definition of a FDP without looking it up.
Many regional and medium haul patterns are very close to max duty and minimum rest but most pilots don’t know the rules and therefore don’t apply them. What we like mostly is the Captain’s don’t have the balls to challenge us and when they do, we interpret the rules in our favor and tell the pilot he is wrong on the interpretation. It rarely goes any further.
Pilots never challenge us on our interpretation of the FTL’s and never write to the CAD (as a MOR) to clarify that interpretation. Your AOA will never Challenge us on FTL interpretation, so why would a Captain stick his individual neck out? He likes his job and will not do anything to jeopardize it. We own the Captains and AOA.
BTW, we have a 15 year implementation plan on housing, but that is another matter.
Next will be rostering and then housing, Hong Kong schooling and then overseas schooling. We are coming for you and your families. We have plans.
To My Bonus.
The Management
Pilots can fly airplanes but sure are dumb on paperwork and industrial matters and we like to keep it that way.
Very few pilots keep track of their duty day and don’t know the FDP limits. I’m sure many don’t know the definition of a FDP without looking it up.
Many regional and medium haul patterns are very close to max duty and minimum rest but most pilots don’t know the rules and therefore don’t apply them. What we like mostly is the Captain’s don’t have the balls to challenge us and when they do, we interpret the rules in our favor and tell the pilot he is wrong on the interpretation. It rarely goes any further.
Pilots never challenge us on our interpretation of the FTL’s and never write to the CAD (as a MOR) to clarify that interpretation. Your AOA will never Challenge us on FTL interpretation, so why would a Captain stick his individual neck out? He likes his job and will not do anything to jeopardize it. We own the Captains and AOA.
BTW, we have a 15 year implementation plan on housing, but that is another matter.
Next will be rostering and then housing, Hong Kong schooling and then overseas schooling. We are coming for you and your families. We have plans.
To My Bonus.
The Management
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You are correct, but:
NC:
You have quoted the words, and the intent of OMPA correctly, and it is certainly the company's ideal interpretation that "because we have told you rest does not include traveling time, or post-flight duties, therefore everything else IS rest".
I put it to you that your 3 hours of rest must, in addition to OMPA, meet a reasonable person's definition of rest, ie repose or sleep.
Standing at a crowded, noisy, smokey, check-in desk for 20 minutes, listening to doof-doof music is not rest (and I therefore delayed our pick-up accordingly). We were in the hotel, but we were not resting.
ok4wire
Rest is defined as sleep or repose, but under the Split duty provisions it is all time that is NOT pre/post flight duties or traveling. So walk in to walk out of the hotel.
Rest is defined as sleep or repose, but under the Split duty provisions it is all time that is NOT pre/post flight duties or traveling. So walk in to walk out of the hotel.
I put it to you that your 3 hours of rest must, in addition to OMPA, meet a reasonable person's definition of rest, ie repose or sleep.
Standing at a crowded, noisy, smokey, check-in desk for 20 minutes, listening to doof-doof music is not rest (and I therefore delayed our pick-up accordingly). We were in the hotel, but we were not resting.
Last edited by OK4Wire; 27th Sep 2014 at 00:22. Reason: add "NC" at the start.
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After wake up call is also NOT rest for a split duty. You extend by 1/2 of time at rest, minimum 3 hours. Once you get the call, having a shower etc is not rest. Who do you think will be responsible if something happens?
“Rest” as defined in "Part A" is to mean “Repose” or “Sleep”. Repose can mean anything from sleep to as little as relaxation as defined in the dictionary. Now with that in mind and playing devil’s advocate, how do you think the company is going to interpret what rest is?
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ok4wire,
whilst I also agree with your comments in general, or rather the gist of them, CAD do not. They agree with how I described it earlier - not sleep - anything but pre/post flight duties and also excluding travel time!
Yet again 404 titan has it right - but i will keep reading and hoping I can catch him out;-))))
whilst I also agree with your comments in general, or rather the gist of them, CAD do not. They agree with how I described it earlier - not sleep - anything but pre/post flight duties and also excluding travel time!
Yet again 404 titan has it right - but i will keep reading and hoping I can catch him out;-))))
