PPruNe advertises CX IFALPA ban
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PPruNe advertises CX IFALPA ban
Since quite recently, an advertising banner has appeared on this site for the IFALPA ban on recruitment at CX.
If you click for the facts you get no facts, just a reminder that there is a ban in place in support of some sacked pilots.
It's a pity the HKAOA still does not have the PR nous to explain its position and its objectives. It makes you wonder whether their officials are spending too much time at the pub located in the same building as their office
If you click for the facts you get no facts, just a reminder that there is a ban in place in support of some sacked pilots.
It's a pity the HKAOA still does not have the PR nous to explain its position and its objectives. It makes you wonder whether their officials are spending too much time at the pub located in the same building as their office
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 24th May 2002 at 09:09.
The Reverend
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Alpha Leader, it's a pity you haven't been following the developments in this dispute which has been going on for the last eight months or so. However, not your fault. You can't be expected to voice an informative opinion in the short time you've been around in this forum. What's the weather like in China?
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hot dog + 6feetunder:
Check out the many other threads about the ban and you will see that no one - not even HKAOA members - can coherently argue what their grievances are.
In fact, in one posting, an apparently very senior guy complained about not being able to spend Christmas at home with this family due to current rostering practices.
Do you really believe that this sort of frivolous whining about individual comfort levels is going to earn the HKAOA any support?
It's time the HKAOA either stated its grievances and objectives on not more than one A4 page or simply went away.
Asking pilots in serious need of a job to give CX a miss just because some daddy didn't get home for Xmas is unionism at its worst - sounds like the British car workers in the 60s!
And what's more hot dog: you will see from this forum that there are quite a number of ex-Ansett guys interested in joining CX. Regardless of the merits of the ban itself, it is obscene that the Aussie tax payer would then be supporting unemployed pilots who otherwise could be earning a decent living with CX.
Check out the many other threads about the ban and you will see that no one - not even HKAOA members - can coherently argue what their grievances are.
In fact, in one posting, an apparently very senior guy complained about not being able to spend Christmas at home with this family due to current rostering practices.
Do you really believe that this sort of frivolous whining about individual comfort levels is going to earn the HKAOA any support?
It's time the HKAOA either stated its grievances and objectives on not more than one A4 page or simply went away.
Asking pilots in serious need of a job to give CX a miss just because some daddy didn't get home for Xmas is unionism at its worst - sounds like the British car workers in the 60s!
And what's more hot dog: you will see from this forum that there are quite a number of ex-Ansett guys interested in joining CX. Regardless of the merits of the ban itself, it is obscene that the Aussie tax payer would then be supporting unemployed pilots who otherwise could be earning a decent living with CX.
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 25th May 2002 at 01:20.
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Alpha Leader, you obviously can not grasp the issues. Very difficult unless you are earning your living as aircrew. Maybe you'll find your answers at : http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm
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Hot Dog:
Thanks for the thread - seen it before. Point is, if the HKAOA can't put their grievances and objectives on a piece of A4 paper (it's called an Executive Summary), then no one is going to bother reading minor details such as "49ers are given repatriation flights in Y class instead of C or J". Do you really think anyone gives a hoot about their creature comforts?
Once and for all: either the issues are sufficiently serious to call a strike - or they're not. Since there is no strike, the issues are obviously minor, and the IFALPA ban is totally unwarranted.
As has been put forward so many times in this forum: the credibility of the HKAOA and IFALAP went out of the window when no upgrade ban was implemented.
Thanks for the thread - seen it before. Point is, if the HKAOA can't put their grievances and objectives on a piece of A4 paper (it's called an Executive Summary), then no one is going to bother reading minor details such as "49ers are given repatriation flights in Y class instead of C or J". Do you really think anyone gives a hoot about their creature comforts?
Once and for all: either the issues are sufficiently serious to call a strike - or they're not. Since there is no strike, the issues are obviously minor, and the IFALPA ban is totally unwarranted.
As has been put forward so many times in this forum: the credibility of the HKAOA and IFALAP went out of the window when no upgrade ban was implemented.
HKAOA "Will support the applications of pilots who respect the ban." Meaning? If management offers a settlement that does not include hiring people who have turned down jobs, but gets some or all of the 49ers jobs back, what will the HKAOA do? Turn it down? My suspicion is "Support" involves a heartfelt thankyou, then back to the dole queue...
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As an uninvolved person, I am trying hard to see both sides of this story.
What often strikes me is not WHAT people say but rather HOW they say it. Sometimes posts are almost breathlessly indignant. Suspiciously so.
I am reminded of Shakespeares famous line - me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
In the case of Alpha Leader, I am suspicious of the point you make about some supposed daddy who didn't get home for Xmas. Why would you want to characterise more than a thousand individuals in such a demeaning and trivialised way? I suspect it is in order to salve your guilty or confused conscience. Because, if you didn't have reason to do so, then I doubt you would stoop to such shallow and simplistic definitions.
What often strikes me is not WHAT people say but rather HOW they say it. Sometimes posts are almost breathlessly indignant. Suspiciously so.
I am reminded of Shakespeares famous line - me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
In the case of Alpha Leader, I am suspicious of the point you make about some supposed daddy who didn't get home for Xmas. Why would you want to characterise more than a thousand individuals in such a demeaning and trivialised way? I suspect it is in order to salve your guilty or confused conscience. Because, if you didn't have reason to do so, then I doubt you would stoop to such shallow and simplistic definitions.
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It seem that some here have absolutely no idea what is going on. Or they work for Freehills...
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/49ers.htm
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/49ers.htm
Lerxt,
I have looked at the thread, read the banner, even sent a query to HKAOA and recieved a reply.
The constant thread is justification of the ban in terms of how badly Cathay managment has treated it's employees. This is not in dispute. The sacking of the 49ers is beneath contempt.
What is in dispute, and has never to my mind been satisfactorily explained is why the HKAOA has put the ENTIRE burden of industrial action on the shoulders of potential new recruits, many of whom are either unemployed or at the bottom rung of the aviation food chain.
None of us need to know how hard done by you are. We understand and recognise that. What we want to know is why you persist with an ineffective strategy which just creates more victims (either because they turned Cathay down, or because they took jobs and will be victimised by you!!) and will not achieve your aims.
Complaining about your lot will not improve it. Either take effective action, or, if it is the best available iption, live with the situation as it stands.
I have looked at the thread, read the banner, even sent a query to HKAOA and recieved a reply.
The constant thread is justification of the ban in terms of how badly Cathay managment has treated it's employees. This is not in dispute. The sacking of the 49ers is beneath contempt.
What is in dispute, and has never to my mind been satisfactorily explained is why the HKAOA has put the ENTIRE burden of industrial action on the shoulders of potential new recruits, many of whom are either unemployed or at the bottom rung of the aviation food chain.
None of us need to know how hard done by you are. We understand and recognise that. What we want to know is why you persist with an ineffective strategy which just creates more victims (either because they turned Cathay down, or because they took jobs and will be victimised by you!!) and will not achieve your aims.
Complaining about your lot will not improve it. Either take effective action, or, if it is the best available iption, live with the situation as it stands.
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HIALS:
The reason I mentioned that "daddy" is because that is precisely the point one of the more senior CX guys raised in one of the (too) many threads in this forum when complaining about the current rostering practices.
This dispute is not about the threat of looming unemployment, or about any serious safety issues. It's about personal comfort levels, and thus frivolous.
Again, HIALS: if the issues were really serious, there would be a strike. As there is no strike, the issues cannot be serious - it's axiomatic. Therefore, there are no grounds for a recruitment ban and, thus, for throwing around terms such as "scab".
That, HIALS, is stooping to the lowest level - in fact, we have here so-called professionals using terminology that might befit wharfies (incidentally another group whose causes have more to do with preserving privileges rather than anything else).
Incidentally, I also notice that your purported date of joining PPruNe goes back to long before this forum existed, let alone you had access to the internet.....:o
The reason I mentioned that "daddy" is because that is precisely the point one of the more senior CX guys raised in one of the (too) many threads in this forum when complaining about the current rostering practices.
This dispute is not about the threat of looming unemployment, or about any serious safety issues. It's about personal comfort levels, and thus frivolous.
Again, HIALS: if the issues were really serious, there would be a strike. As there is no strike, the issues cannot be serious - it's axiomatic. Therefore, there are no grounds for a recruitment ban and, thus, for throwing around terms such as "scab".
That, HIALS, is stooping to the lowest level - in fact, we have here so-called professionals using terminology that might befit wharfies (incidentally another group whose causes have more to do with preserving privileges rather than anything else).
Incidentally, I also notice that your purported date of joining PPruNe goes back to long before this forum existed, let alone you had access to the internet.....:o
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 26th May 2002 at 03:17.
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Alpha Leader
The senior guy you refer to I believe might just be telling the odd porkie.
Please re-read the "What about the senior guys" thread of several days back to get the idea.
Thank you.
The senior guy you refer to I believe might just be telling the odd porkie.
Please re-read the "What about the senior guys" thread of several days back to get the idea.
Thank you.
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Alpha Leader - you are showing your ignorance here son. The date of joining PPRuNe (registered date) is controlled by PPRuNe Towers. Whilst it's obvious (gee you're sooo observant) I didn't start reading this forum in 1969 - I had no input into that date whatsoever.
I guess that some time ago when they updated to a new software program, a lot of us oldies got some sort of default date. Look around, you'll see lot's of others with the same date. I like to think of us as the original PPRuNers.
What I can tell you is that I've been reading PPRuNe for more than 7 years. So please don't try to talk down to me.
Now, back to the matter at hand.
I repeat that you are too strident by far on this subject. You are too quick to grasp the simplistic device of assuming that more than a thousand pilots will lash their careers to protecting privilege. It's suspicious to me that you want it so conveniently cut and dried. They are greedy, self-interested and trivial. You are right, correct and will be vindicated...???
I for one don't believe the world to be such a straight forward place.
Last edited by HIALS; 26th May 2002 at 04:30.
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From ALPA's "Airline Pilot" publication April/June 2002.
https://www.alpa.org/internet/alp/20...ne2002p20.html
Return to Hong Kong—Four Decades Later
Being treated like an international celebrity is fun.
When Capt. John "Curly" Culp of Delta asked if I would talk to the Cathay Pacific pilots, who were "great fans" of my books, I agreed. Talk’s mostly what professors do.
So on March 9, my wife Elaine and I touched down in Hong Kong for the first time in 39 years. In 1963, we spent a week of R&R there, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
A pilot with a classic Australian accent (nameless because of the climate of intimidation) escorted us to the Hong Kong Marco Polo Hotel. We needed rest after United’s nonstop flight from O’Hare (which is billed the world’s longest).
Recovering from jet lag by doing touristy things, we took a day trip to the city formerly known as Canton (something we couldn’t do when it was behind the Bamboo Curtain) and tried to watch the harbor again from the Peninsula Hotel bar in Kowloon. But new construction built on landfill now blocks that once-famous view.
Air pollution is serious. The view from atop the Victoria Peak Tramway was smog-obscured throughout February, raising news media alarm over its effect on tourism. The smog comes from mainland China, where pollution controls on industry do not exist.
Cathay Pacific’s pilots mostly live in the expatriate community on Lantau Island, far enough out to lessen the effect on their children’s health, a little. Even if IFALPA had not banned pilot recruitment at Cathay Pacific, I would warn any pilot with children about accepting a job there.
The Cathay Pacific pilot group is an extraordinarily capable bunch, likeable, gregarious, "shrimps on the barbie" types. They’re well-read and articulate, interested in history generally, not just ALPA’s.
The radicalization they’ve undergone resembles the similar awakening of United’s pilots in the 1980s and Delta’s in the 1990s. Cathay Pacific’s pilots are quick to draw parallels between Frank Lorenzo and David Turnbull, the "Swire Prince" whose assault on their wages and working conditions has destroyed what was once the premier pilot job in Asia. A "Swire Prince" is a "comer" in that corporation’s fiercely anti-union executive ranks.
During two lengthy "focus groups" with Cathay Pacific’s pilots, I was amazed at their knowledge of ALPA’s history. Comparisons of Lorenzo and Turnbull prefaced many questions. "Why do they do these things, so unnecessary and counterproductive?" was the recurrent theme. This rhetorical lament has a long history, as does the puzzling behavior of managers whom Cathay Pacific pilots call "pilot haters."
Why can’t the Lorenzos and Turnbulls of the world learn that warring on pilots, the most cooperative, management-oriented unionized workers in the world, is unwise? Did Lorenzo’s destruction of ALPA at Continental benefit him? Continental’s back in ALPA, and Lorenzo is disgraced—gone like Eastern, thanks to his own incompetence, documented by the bankruptcy court.
Many Cathay Pacific pilots are Aussie refugees from Ansett Airlines. In 1989, Ansett broke its pilots’ union. Cathay Pacific’s pilots are aware of the similarities between Sir Peter Abeles and Frank Lorenzo, between Prime Minister Bob Hawke and the senior George Bush. Management "won" both disputes, but with the same result. Ansett ceased to exist in February 2002, despite its nonunion pilot force. History repeating itself again—first as tragedy, then as farce.
Perhaps history’s "lesson" is that any manager who can’t find common ground with pilots, who have far more at stake in the success of their airlines than any manager ever will, cannot successfully manage an airline under any circumstance—unionized or not. Call it a "marker for failure," and you’re not far off the truth.
After meeting with nearly 200 Cathay Pacific pilots and their families, I’m more than ever convinced that Capt. Merle "Skip" Eglet (Northwest, Ret.) was right when he said: "If I live to be a hundred, I’ll never understand why Lorenzo did the things he did."
Cathay Pacific’s pilots are no closer to understanding Turnbull.—GH
https://www.alpa.org/internet/alp/20...ne2002p20.html
Return to Hong Kong—Four Decades Later
Being treated like an international celebrity is fun.
When Capt. John "Curly" Culp of Delta asked if I would talk to the Cathay Pacific pilots, who were "great fans" of my books, I agreed. Talk’s mostly what professors do.
So on March 9, my wife Elaine and I touched down in Hong Kong for the first time in 39 years. In 1963, we spent a week of R&R there, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
A pilot with a classic Australian accent (nameless because of the climate of intimidation) escorted us to the Hong Kong Marco Polo Hotel. We needed rest after United’s nonstop flight from O’Hare (which is billed the world’s longest).
Recovering from jet lag by doing touristy things, we took a day trip to the city formerly known as Canton (something we couldn’t do when it was behind the Bamboo Curtain) and tried to watch the harbor again from the Peninsula Hotel bar in Kowloon. But new construction built on landfill now blocks that once-famous view.
Air pollution is serious. The view from atop the Victoria Peak Tramway was smog-obscured throughout February, raising news media alarm over its effect on tourism. The smog comes from mainland China, where pollution controls on industry do not exist.
Cathay Pacific’s pilots mostly live in the expatriate community on Lantau Island, far enough out to lessen the effect on their children’s health, a little. Even if IFALPA had not banned pilot recruitment at Cathay Pacific, I would warn any pilot with children about accepting a job there.
The Cathay Pacific pilot group is an extraordinarily capable bunch, likeable, gregarious, "shrimps on the barbie" types. They’re well-read and articulate, interested in history generally, not just ALPA’s.
The radicalization they’ve undergone resembles the similar awakening of United’s pilots in the 1980s and Delta’s in the 1990s. Cathay Pacific’s pilots are quick to draw parallels between Frank Lorenzo and David Turnbull, the "Swire Prince" whose assault on their wages and working conditions has destroyed what was once the premier pilot job in Asia. A "Swire Prince" is a "comer" in that corporation’s fiercely anti-union executive ranks.
During two lengthy "focus groups" with Cathay Pacific’s pilots, I was amazed at their knowledge of ALPA’s history. Comparisons of Lorenzo and Turnbull prefaced many questions. "Why do they do these things, so unnecessary and counterproductive?" was the recurrent theme. This rhetorical lament has a long history, as does the puzzling behavior of managers whom Cathay Pacific pilots call "pilot haters."
Why can’t the Lorenzos and Turnbulls of the world learn that warring on pilots, the most cooperative, management-oriented unionized workers in the world, is unwise? Did Lorenzo’s destruction of ALPA at Continental benefit him? Continental’s back in ALPA, and Lorenzo is disgraced—gone like Eastern, thanks to his own incompetence, documented by the bankruptcy court.
Many Cathay Pacific pilots are Aussie refugees from Ansett Airlines. In 1989, Ansett broke its pilots’ union. Cathay Pacific’s pilots are aware of the similarities between Sir Peter Abeles and Frank Lorenzo, between Prime Minister Bob Hawke and the senior George Bush. Management "won" both disputes, but with the same result. Ansett ceased to exist in February 2002, despite its nonunion pilot force. History repeating itself again—first as tragedy, then as farce.
Perhaps history’s "lesson" is that any manager who can’t find common ground with pilots, who have far more at stake in the success of their airlines than any manager ever will, cannot successfully manage an airline under any circumstance—unionized or not. Call it a "marker for failure," and you’re not far off the truth.
After meeting with nearly 200 Cathay Pacific pilots and their families, I’m more than ever convinced that Capt. Merle "Skip" Eglet (Northwest, Ret.) was right when he said: "If I live to be a hundred, I’ll never understand why Lorenzo did the things he did."
Cathay Pacific’s pilots are no closer to understanding Turnbull.—GH
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HIALS:
Glad to hear you've been around for seven + years, makes two of us as I changed handle when moving to new server.
As to the matter in hand:
The world is, indeed, not a straightforward place, which is why the tactics of the HKAOA and its members are reprehensible. In particular, it is disturbing to see that a union that does not have the guts to call a strike then tries to enforce a recruitment ban (but, of course, not an upgrade ban) and then is quite happy to sit back an let its members - in this very forum - use the term "scab", which is a derisory word for "strikebreaker".
This leads to either of two possible conclusions: either those using this term are ignorant of its meaning, which would cast alarming doubt on the language proficiency of flightdeck crews - or the term is being knowingly used in an unwarranted way, which casts equally alarming doubts on the character profiles of flightdeck crews.
The point at which the word "scab" entered this forum is when overly simplistic (and aggressive, I should add) views began to surface.
Glad to hear you've been around for seven + years, makes two of us
as I changed handle when moving to new server.As to the matter in hand:
The world is, indeed, not a straightforward place, which is why the tactics of the HKAOA and its members are reprehensible. In particular, it is disturbing to see that a union that does not have the guts to call a strike then tries to enforce a recruitment ban (but, of course, not an upgrade ban) and then is quite happy to sit back an let its members - in this very forum - use the term "scab", which is a derisory word for "strikebreaker".
This leads to either of two possible conclusions: either those using this term are ignorant of its meaning, which would cast alarming doubt on the language proficiency of flightdeck crews - or the term is being knowingly used in an unwarranted way, which casts equally alarming doubts on the character profiles of flightdeck crews.
The point at which the word "scab" entered this forum is when overly simplistic (and aggressive, I should add) views began to surface.
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Alpha Leader, I'm surprised you are unaware of the Hong Kong Labour ordinace that stipulates that strikes are only allowed outside working hours or with the sanction of the company affected. In other words, for all practical purposes a strike is a non starter. Since you have such a ready opinion on everything that doesn't concern you, I am sure you would be proud to elaborate on your username of Alpha Leader. Were you a Colonel in the PC-7 team at Duebendorf or perhaps a Lt. Colonel with Patrouille Suisse? Personally, I doubt if you were aircrew or you wouldn't be so bloody negative about Cathay pilots.
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Hi Hot Dog:
As a CX shareholder I think I have every right to be interested in this topic.
I am, however, surprised that you are unaware of Article 27 of the Basic Law, which - among other items - guarantees the right to join trade unions and to strike.
Are we talking about the same Hong Kong?
In any case, there are precedents (I think going back to the early 90's when CX F/As went on strike).
But again, we come back to the fundamentals: HK is not a union-friendly territory, and anyone who feels they are not getting a good deal can get out.
As a CX shareholder I think I have every right to be interested in this topic.
I am, however, surprised that you are unaware of Article 27 of the Basic Law, which - among other items - guarantees the right to join trade unions and to strike.
Are we talking about the same Hong Kong?
In any case, there are precedents (I think going back to the early 90's when CX F/As went on strike).
But again, we come back to the fundamentals: HK is not a union-friendly territory, and anyone who feels they are not getting a good deal can get out.
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 26th May 2002 at 07:45.