Improved pay offer...
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Improved pay offer...
http://http://www.scmp.com/news/hong...pilots-dispute
Cathay Pacific Airways has made an improved pay offer to its pilots in a bid to end a long-running dispute that could trigger a work-to-rule by cockpit crew over the peak summer travel period.
The offer was tabled on Friday afternoon at the end of a week of intensive talks between airline officials and the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA) to try to end the year-long deadlock over pay and rosters.
The offer, however, is being viewed by the union as a stepping stone rather than a solution. Mediation sessions are now expected to be held in the coming weeks and if those fail, HKAOA members may yet declare a work-to-rule, also known as contract compliance, which could hit summer flights
HKAOA general secretary Chris Beebe, a former US airline pilot, said: "We had a week of negotiations that showed some promise but we still have much work to do.
"It could still be a very long hot summer from the consumers' point of view.
"The committee is determining what they will do next. We do have mediation scheduled and we hope to move expeditiously on this."
Under a "good faith bargaining framework agreement" pilots are entitled to work to rule if mediation is unsuccessful.
An airline spokeswoman said in a statement that even though last week's talks ended in deadlock, the "agreed bargaining process" would continue. A further round of talks is scheduled for the end of July.
The statement said: "The last pay agreement expired in May 2013. All pilots at Cathay Pacific are on pay scales and have been receiving an increase in pay on an annual basis unless they have reached the top of scale.
"We recognise that in certain jurisdictions, the packages of based pilots may have fallen behind the local market levels. However, this is not the case everywhere. The airline has already sought to address these inconsistencies."
The statement added that the airline felt "industrial practices in the US do not necessarily translate well" to an Asian workplace.
"In recent years, many US airlines have been forced to seek major adjustments to the packages of existing pilots both in terms of remuneration and retirement packages. This has not occurred at Cathay Pacific."
Cathay Pacific Airways has made an improved pay offer to its pilots in a bid to end a long-running dispute that could trigger a work-to-rule by cockpit crew over the peak summer travel period.
The offer was tabled on Friday afternoon at the end of a week of intensive talks between airline officials and the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA) to try to end the year-long deadlock over pay and rosters.
The offer, however, is being viewed by the union as a stepping stone rather than a solution. Mediation sessions are now expected to be held in the coming weeks and if those fail, HKAOA members may yet declare a work-to-rule, also known as contract compliance, which could hit summer flights
HKAOA general secretary Chris Beebe, a former US airline pilot, said: "We had a week of negotiations that showed some promise but we still have much work to do.
"It could still be a very long hot summer from the consumers' point of view.
"The committee is determining what they will do next. We do have mediation scheduled and we hope to move expeditiously on this."
Under a "good faith bargaining framework agreement" pilots are entitled to work to rule if mediation is unsuccessful.
An airline spokeswoman said in a statement that even though last week's talks ended in deadlock, the "agreed bargaining process" would continue. A further round of talks is scheduled for the end of July.
The statement said: "The last pay agreement expired in May 2013. All pilots at Cathay Pacific are on pay scales and have been receiving an increase in pay on an annual basis unless they have reached the top of scale.
"We recognise that in certain jurisdictions, the packages of based pilots may have fallen behind the local market levels. However, this is not the case everywhere. The airline has already sought to address these inconsistencies."
The statement added that the airline felt "industrial practices in the US do not necessarily translate well" to an Asian workplace.
"In recent years, many US airlines have been forced to seek major adjustments to the packages of existing pilots both in terms of remuneration and retirement packages. This has not occurred at Cathay Pacific."
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"In recent years, many US airlines have been forced to seek major adjustments to the packages of existing pilots both in terms of remuneration and retirement packages. This has not occurred at Cathay Pacific"
In this case, Cathay have been far ahead of the game, and decreased wages of its senior pilots by over 30% TWENTY YEARS ago, and not adjusted for inflation or cost of living for the past 20 years.
Additionally, new pilots are being hired at less than 30% of the salary that was being paid 5 years ago.
The CX spin is getting so old it's laughable.
In this case, Cathay have been far ahead of the game, and decreased wages of its senior pilots by over 30% TWENTY YEARS ago, and not adjusted for inflation or cost of living for the past 20 years.
Additionally, new pilots are being hired at less than 30% of the salary that was being paid 5 years ago.
The CX spin is getting so old it's laughable.
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What retirement package; one thing very rarely mentioned is that CX get away with daylight robbery on this. They have no, repeat no pensions black hole , they give you a sum to invest either yourself or in an investment vehicle with absolutely no risk to themselves, nor future obligation , fiscal or otherwise. Utter, utter bollocks.
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"In recent years, many US airlines have been forced to seek major adjustments to the packages of existing pilots both in terms of remuneration and retirement packages. This has not occurred at Cathay Pacific"
Yes they have. UAL, AMR, DAL, etc have all been forced to RAISE the remuneration and retirement packages since 2012! This isn't post 9/11 we are dealing with anymore.
They are correct that Cathay has not adjusted remuneration or retirement packages upwards like in the US!
Yes they have. UAL, AMR, DAL, etc have all been forced to RAISE the remuneration and retirement packages since 2012! This isn't post 9/11 we are dealing with anymore.
They are correct that Cathay has not adjusted remuneration or retirement packages upwards like in the US!
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From China Daily Asia
The War of Words has begun. Link and text copied below.
Pilot dispute threatens long hot summer for passengers - China Daily Asia
In a drab and unremarkable-looking meeting room in Tung Chung, two groups of negotiators have faced each other testily across the table in tense, finely-balanced talks that could potentially determine the summer holiday plans of many Hong Kong families.
They have been deadlocked for 18 months and, as the latest round of talks over pay and rostering began on Monday, there was no sign of any breakthrough between the city’s biggest airline, Cathay Pacific, and its pilot union, the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).
Now, the stakes are much higher as the impasse leaves the pilots considering declaring a work-to-rule — or contract compliance — over the peak summer months if the talks once again collapse and mediators subsequently fail to broker an agreement.
“This week’s events will dictate the future course of things,” HKAOA general secretary Chris Beebe told China Daily. “I don’t think there’s a high probability of (contract compliance) right now, but it could still turn out to be a long, hot summer.”
Cathay Pacific, for its part, hints that it is ready for any eventuality and that its flights would not be affected even if pilots did declare a work-to-rule but insists: “We intend to continue negotiations to a successful conclusion.”
Paying the price
The key issues in the talks are pay and rosters. The 1,900-member HKAOA has already declared an impasse over the issue of pay, triggering a mechanism for external mediators to be brought in. It is now considering declaring an impasse on the issue of rostering as well.
Under a Good Faith Bargaining Framework Agreement between the airline and the union, pilots can declare a work-to-rule if the issues remain deadlocked and mediation talks then fail, something that is now only one step away in the pay issue.
Cathay Pacific has already had a pay offer believed to be around 4 per cent rejected by the pilots’ union and it would take a significantly improved offer for the deadlock to be broken this week, argues Beebe who says he is “not optimistic” of a positive outcome.
Hong Kong people had a misconception on the level of pilots’ pay, he said, and did not realise how much it had fallen back in recent years. “There is a significant segment of the pilots group that has had no significant pay increase for several years,” he said.
“When the company went to two pay tiers, they established a second tier that was significantly lower than the first, and most people who are still on that first tier have not had a pay rise.
“The frustration (among pilots) has increased. We have seen an increase in applications for membership and an increase in the number of active members. I think this reflects the fact that pilots are unifying behind the association and seeing benefits to being part of the group that is attempting to make improvements to their lives both pay-wise and in terms of working conditions.”
The second key battleground is over rosters. “The pilots, who are among the most productive in the world, are seeking improvements in their working conditions,” said Beebe.
“They would like a more stable roster, they would like to see things that are a lot more predictable in their lives, and to this point the flexibility has pretty much been entirely on the company’s side.”
An additional area of dispute is over Cathay Pacific proposals to reduce the number of pilots used on some long-haul flights, cutting the number of pilots on some routes between Hong Kong and Europe from four to three in a move the airline says will bring it in line with other global carriers.
Tense negotiations
For Beebe, a former US Airways pilot who took over as HKAOA general secretary in January, his introduction to the world of Cathay Pacific and Hong Kong labor relations has been something of a baptism of fire.
He began his job at a point when attempts to reach a new deal on pay and rosters had already been dragging on without settlement for a year. Six months on, and the union is no further forward in negotiation and only one step away from declaring a work-to-rule.
Cathay Pacific’s combative negotiating style, the often bitter history between the airline and its pilots and the idiosyncratic nature of the Hong Kong labour laws have all come as something of a shock to the system for someone used to the less adversarial style of negotiation in the US.
“It’s an interesting type of negotiation that we have here. I would say it’s more positional than interest-based,” said Beebe, speaking just ahead of this week’s talks.
“There is a particular school of negotiation called interest-based negotiation where the two parties work to find solutions to common problems. Negotiation here is much more positional in that the parties essentially trade positions back and forth across the table until one (side) sees something they like. It is quite a bit different from more collegial type of working atmosphere.
“This type of negotiation we used to do 20 years ago and it evolved into this new type of negotiating where everybody is viewed as a stakeholder and as a stakeholder you certainly get an opportunity to find solutions that work for both parties. But what can I say? It is Cathay Pacific and they have their way of doing business and we have to comply with that.”
The history of labor relations between pilots and Cathay Pacific, which sacked a group of pilots later known as the 49ers en masse in a 2001 dispute over pay and rosters, is one factor contributing to the apparent mutual distrust, Beebe says.
“For the guys who were here when the 49ers lost their jobs, it is still a pretty difficult thing for them to deal with,” he said.
“But, having said that, the lack of labor laws in Hong Kong doesn’t help to push the parties together either. It doesn’t help the parties reach resolution. It doesn’t provide deadlines. It doesn’t provide any sort of structure that would allow this to evolve naturally.
“Instead, it is all based on the recognition of Cathay Pacific and their willingness to deal with the pilots. It can drag on until one party gets so frustrated they begin to take unilateral action.”
Solutions sought
Cathay Pacific declined to give an interview about the pay and rostering talks.
An airline spokeswoman instead issued a statement suggesting talks could continue in July if this week’s talks reach no agreement.
“We have scheduled sessions in July even though we have agreed to prepare for mediation as part of the Good Faith Bargaining Framework Agreement,” the statement said. “Both parties have also agreed that no action will be taken whilst this process is ongoing.”
The statement added: “Cathay Pacific has shown throughout this process that it is fully committed to achieving agreement on all five topics — pay, rostering practices, Hong Kong pilot allowance, housing and basings — that are of interest to pilots represented by the HKAOA. The company intends to continue negotiations to a successful conclusion.”
If the two sides remain deadlocked, however, pilots had the option of “voting with their feet” by deciding whether or not to declare a work-to-rule, said Beebe.
“The company is trying to achieve the lowest cost they possibly can,” he said. “But they have to be concerned about retention of pilots because there are pilot jobs available in other places. They have to be concerned if their fleet plan, if they intend to expand flying out of Hong Kong, they have got to be able to attract pilots to Hong Kong to work here and to live here.
“Then, of course, there is the competitive aspect. The airlines in the United States, for one, appear to be showing record profits and without doubt the pay increases will increase with those profits. Cathay pilots have an eye on what is happening throughout the rest of the world and they want to be compensated for the job they do.”
Asked if passengers with summer flights already booked with Cathay Pacific should be concerned at the prospect of a possible work-to-rule by pilots over the summer, Beebe said: “At this stage, I would hesitate to say that … but this week will be interesting. I am not sure how pivotal it will be in terms of where we go, but it will certainly dictate future events.”
---
Pilot dispute threatens long hot summer for passengers - China Daily Asia
In a drab and unremarkable-looking meeting room in Tung Chung, two groups of negotiators have faced each other testily across the table in tense, finely-balanced talks that could potentially determine the summer holiday plans of many Hong Kong families.
They have been deadlocked for 18 months and, as the latest round of talks over pay and rostering began on Monday, there was no sign of any breakthrough between the city’s biggest airline, Cathay Pacific, and its pilot union, the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).
Now, the stakes are much higher as the impasse leaves the pilots considering declaring a work-to-rule — or contract compliance — over the peak summer months if the talks once again collapse and mediators subsequently fail to broker an agreement.
“This week’s events will dictate the future course of things,” HKAOA general secretary Chris Beebe told China Daily. “I don’t think there’s a high probability of (contract compliance) right now, but it could still turn out to be a long, hot summer.”
Cathay Pacific, for its part, hints that it is ready for any eventuality and that its flights would not be affected even if pilots did declare a work-to-rule but insists: “We intend to continue negotiations to a successful conclusion.”
Paying the price
The key issues in the talks are pay and rosters. The 1,900-member HKAOA has already declared an impasse over the issue of pay, triggering a mechanism for external mediators to be brought in. It is now considering declaring an impasse on the issue of rostering as well.
Under a Good Faith Bargaining Framework Agreement between the airline and the union, pilots can declare a work-to-rule if the issues remain deadlocked and mediation talks then fail, something that is now only one step away in the pay issue.
Cathay Pacific has already had a pay offer believed to be around 4 per cent rejected by the pilots’ union and it would take a significantly improved offer for the deadlock to be broken this week, argues Beebe who says he is “not optimistic” of a positive outcome.
Hong Kong people had a misconception on the level of pilots’ pay, he said, and did not realise how much it had fallen back in recent years. “There is a significant segment of the pilots group that has had no significant pay increase for several years,” he said.
“When the company went to two pay tiers, they established a second tier that was significantly lower than the first, and most people who are still on that first tier have not had a pay rise.
“The frustration (among pilots) has increased. We have seen an increase in applications for membership and an increase in the number of active members. I think this reflects the fact that pilots are unifying behind the association and seeing benefits to being part of the group that is attempting to make improvements to their lives both pay-wise and in terms of working conditions.”
The second key battleground is over rosters. “The pilots, who are among the most productive in the world, are seeking improvements in their working conditions,” said Beebe.
“They would like a more stable roster, they would like to see things that are a lot more predictable in their lives, and to this point the flexibility has pretty much been entirely on the company’s side.”
An additional area of dispute is over Cathay Pacific proposals to reduce the number of pilots used on some long-haul flights, cutting the number of pilots on some routes between Hong Kong and Europe from four to three in a move the airline says will bring it in line with other global carriers.
Tense negotiations
For Beebe, a former US Airways pilot who took over as HKAOA general secretary in January, his introduction to the world of Cathay Pacific and Hong Kong labor relations has been something of a baptism of fire.
He began his job at a point when attempts to reach a new deal on pay and rosters had already been dragging on without settlement for a year. Six months on, and the union is no further forward in negotiation and only one step away from declaring a work-to-rule.
Cathay Pacific’s combative negotiating style, the often bitter history between the airline and its pilots and the idiosyncratic nature of the Hong Kong labour laws have all come as something of a shock to the system for someone used to the less adversarial style of negotiation in the US.
“It’s an interesting type of negotiation that we have here. I would say it’s more positional than interest-based,” said Beebe, speaking just ahead of this week’s talks.
“There is a particular school of negotiation called interest-based negotiation where the two parties work to find solutions to common problems. Negotiation here is much more positional in that the parties essentially trade positions back and forth across the table until one (side) sees something they like. It is quite a bit different from more collegial type of working atmosphere.
“This type of negotiation we used to do 20 years ago and it evolved into this new type of negotiating where everybody is viewed as a stakeholder and as a stakeholder you certainly get an opportunity to find solutions that work for both parties. But what can I say? It is Cathay Pacific and they have their way of doing business and we have to comply with that.”
The history of labor relations between pilots and Cathay Pacific, which sacked a group of pilots later known as the 49ers en masse in a 2001 dispute over pay and rosters, is one factor contributing to the apparent mutual distrust, Beebe says.
“For the guys who were here when the 49ers lost their jobs, it is still a pretty difficult thing for them to deal with,” he said.
“But, having said that, the lack of labor laws in Hong Kong doesn’t help to push the parties together either. It doesn’t help the parties reach resolution. It doesn’t provide deadlines. It doesn’t provide any sort of structure that would allow this to evolve naturally.
“Instead, it is all based on the recognition of Cathay Pacific and their willingness to deal with the pilots. It can drag on until one party gets so frustrated they begin to take unilateral action.”
Solutions sought
Cathay Pacific declined to give an interview about the pay and rostering talks.
An airline spokeswoman instead issued a statement suggesting talks could continue in July if this week’s talks reach no agreement.
“We have scheduled sessions in July even though we have agreed to prepare for mediation as part of the Good Faith Bargaining Framework Agreement,” the statement said. “Both parties have also agreed that no action will be taken whilst this process is ongoing.”
The statement added: “Cathay Pacific has shown throughout this process that it is fully committed to achieving agreement on all five topics — pay, rostering practices, Hong Kong pilot allowance, housing and basings — that are of interest to pilots represented by the HKAOA. The company intends to continue negotiations to a successful conclusion.”
If the two sides remain deadlocked, however, pilots had the option of “voting with their feet” by deciding whether or not to declare a work-to-rule, said Beebe.
“The company is trying to achieve the lowest cost they possibly can,” he said. “But they have to be concerned about retention of pilots because there are pilot jobs available in other places. They have to be concerned if their fleet plan, if they intend to expand flying out of Hong Kong, they have got to be able to attract pilots to Hong Kong to work here and to live here.
“Then, of course, there is the competitive aspect. The airlines in the United States, for one, appear to be showing record profits and without doubt the pay increases will increase with those profits. Cathay pilots have an eye on what is happening throughout the rest of the world and they want to be compensated for the job they do.”
Asked if passengers with summer flights already booked with Cathay Pacific should be concerned at the prospect of a possible work-to-rule by pilots over the summer, Beebe said: “At this stage, I would hesitate to say that … but this week will be interesting. I am not sure how pivotal it will be in terms of where we go, but it will certainly dictate future events.”
---
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As oil prices climb, how long until the company states "due to the cost of fuel concessions are required from cockpit crew"?
Their standard game plan is to delay during good times; until the bad times arrive, then demand we immediately help out.
Their standard game plan is to delay during good times; until the bad times arrive, then demand we immediately help out.
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Like you, I too am outraged by the dishonest rhetoric from CX. The question, however, is what are you doing right now to get yourself a pay adjustment? (Note: it's not a raise because all we are trying to do is make up for losses to inflation.) If all you're doing is paying AOA dues, it's not enough. Get involved... Get on the AOA forums, participate in the conversations, learn more specifically about your contract, the process, AFTLs, etc. and for God's sake, stop helping out the company. FLY YOUR CONTRACT! No more, no less. Stop answering your phones, yes this includes the hotel line. Stop acknowledging crew direct changes. Stop accepting duties without adequate time to adjust your rest. It's hard. It's supposed to be hard. Nothing worth doing is easy. The company is just taking what you give them, so stop giving it away, you stupid sluts!
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And they wouldn't drag out "negotiations" until the summer peak travel season is over, would they? Just like they did with the Christmas and Chinese New Year peak...
"Fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice (or more) shame on ME".
"Fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice (or more) shame on ME".
Trouble is, you could change the date on the last few posts and make it 2004 instead of 2014 and absolutely nothing has changed. I, and several others I know, have been doing CC for ages. What it needs is EVERYONE to just do that. It's not Industrial Action. It's just doing what you're paid to do. We 'help out' all the time because we are proud and good and want to do the best for ourselves, our crews and our passengers. Meanwhile our Leaders plot and plan our Corporate demise. More fool us, I say!
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There is a saying "He's a nice person once you get to know him, is the same as saying he's a dickh**d but you get used to it."
Therefore:
"Cathay is a nice place to work once you understand them"... is the same as saying... "They are C***s, but you get used to it..."
Therefore:
"Cathay is a nice place to work once you understand them"... is the same as saying... "They are C***s, but you get used to it..."
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Perhaps this explains it all...
