It's time
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It's time
Boys, it's time to blow the bridge and end the AOA.
For too long, it had legitimized the tactics used by CX to employ first world pilots into a third world company culture.
With the closure of MAN, the changes in defining fitness for flight, the end of A days and whatever else is being thrown this way it is time to stop it.
Disband the AOA. Let the company deal with 2500+ contracts. Let them clean up their own mess. Get your subs back.
A disbandment of the AoA will hurt CX more. Let it burn.
For too long, it had legitimized the tactics used by CX to employ first world pilots into a third world company culture.
With the closure of MAN, the changes in defining fitness for flight, the end of A days and whatever else is being thrown this way it is time to stop it.
Disband the AOA. Let the company deal with 2500+ contracts. Let them clean up their own mess. Get your subs back.
A disbandment of the AoA will hurt CX more. Let it burn.
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When I pay my AoA fee's , I think more of my association with IFALPA. I loss my license from 1998 -2000 due to medical complications. Without the help and assistance from IFALPA I would not have been able to get my license ,and position in the company back after only 10 months.
You cannot join IFALPA as an associate member if you are employed in a company that allows a union.
We can discuss the weakness of labor laws in Hong Kong at length, or CX's disregard for any union agreements, but to me it's comforting to know I am a member of a pilot group that can give world wide support when I am in jail for an aviation related incident.
I see it as insurance money.
You cannot join IFALPA as an associate member if you are employed in a company that allows a union.
We can discuss the weakness of labor laws in Hong Kong at length, or CX's disregard for any union agreements, but to me it's comforting to know I am a member of a pilot group that can give world wide support when I am in jail for an aviation related incident.
I see it as insurance money.
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So turn it into an insurance agent and keep paying premiums.
A pilot union with recognition rights yet lacking collective bargaining powers becomes a tool used by the company to give the illusion of civilty. Whatever crap they throw gets legitimized, condoned and perceived as accepted by the AOA by the very fact that it wasn't opposed, rejected or fought over. Humbling letters and off-colored lanyards don't count. In the real world, unions have such powers. Here, not even close. Call a strike and watch the first crews to not report at despatch be fired for missed duty. Call CC and watch the defectors run for the woods as rosters go evil and staff travel gets pulled. Initiate MSS and....
Waving a gun without ammunition can get you into far worse trouble than waving no gun at all. At least it then becomes obvious to all who is the bully and who is the victim.
A pilot union with recognition rights yet lacking collective bargaining powers becomes a tool used by the company to give the illusion of civilty. Whatever crap they throw gets legitimized, condoned and perceived as accepted by the AOA by the very fact that it wasn't opposed, rejected or fought over. Humbling letters and off-colored lanyards don't count. In the real world, unions have such powers. Here, not even close. Call a strike and watch the first crews to not report at despatch be fired for missed duty. Call CC and watch the defectors run for the woods as rosters go evil and staff travel gets pulled. Initiate MSS and....
Waving a gun without ammunition can get you into far worse trouble than waving no gun at all. At least it then becomes obvious to all who is the bully and who is the victim.
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I hate to agree with last statement but its true! the whole"lets band together"which will no doubt follow with no action is the boy crying wolf in my opinion.
for those who have been here a while it is history repeating. Almost embarrassing the lack of spine and conviction the AOA and pilot group as a whole have exhibited.
for those who have been here a while it is history repeating. Almost embarrassing the lack of spine and conviction the AOA and pilot group as a whole have exhibited.
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Quadspeed,
[QUOTE]So turn it into an insurance agent and keep paying premiums. /QUOTE]
And how is that going to protect you when you run off the runway and sit in jail until proven not guilty. Japan as an example
[QUOTE]So turn it into an insurance agent and keep paying premiums. /QUOTE]
And how is that going to protect you when you run off the runway and sit in jail until proven not guilty. Japan as an example
...and the expat captain of the MD-11 that flipped on landing in a typhoon some years ago in HKG (our home base) was mighty glad of IFALPA assistance as well.
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It was HKALPA that got said captain out of Hong Kong, and it will be HKALPA that gets you the attorney when you plow a new field at Narita.
Assistance abroad is perhaps the only legitimate reason to keep this thing together, but do we really need prime TST realestate, two offices, a staff of seven and 20 volunteers to achieve that?
2500 direct memberships with HKALPA would do the same.
Assistance abroad is perhaps the only legitimate reason to keep this thing together, but do we really need prime TST realestate, two offices, a staff of seven and 20 volunteers to achieve that?
2500 direct memberships with HKALPA would do the same.
Last edited by quadspeed; 3rd May 2014 at 06:01.
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HKAOA
The Association does great technical work and the insurance and legal benefits are good.
BUT ... and its a huge BUT, their industrial negotiating skills are sadly lacking. Not only this but they have recently ignored a membership mandate to initiate limited industrial action and failed to stop a base closing whilst there was still a chance of doing so. I'm happy for them to stop representing us at the industrial table and ask the company to deal with 2500+ pilots individually at annual pay review time. Start making your appointments now.
Having said all of the above we still have the option of sending the NT back to the table if indeed the offer is not quite what some of our people were expecting.
Those who say that a refusal of the first offer will lead to an inferior second offer were clearly not here in 1999 when we parked most of the jets, and an improved offer was forthcoming. I hope there is a industrial sub committee making contingency plans, but I wouldn't bet on it.
BUT ... and its a huge BUT, their industrial negotiating skills are sadly lacking. Not only this but they have recently ignored a membership mandate to initiate limited industrial action and failed to stop a base closing whilst there was still a chance of doing so. I'm happy for them to stop representing us at the industrial table and ask the company to deal with 2500+ pilots individually at annual pay review time. Start making your appointments now.
Having said all of the above we still have the option of sending the NT back to the table if indeed the offer is not quite what some of our people were expecting.
Those who say that a refusal of the first offer will lead to an inferior second offer were clearly not here in 1999 when we parked most of the jets, and an improved offer was forthcoming. I hope there is a industrial sub committee making contingency plans, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Great idea Quadspeed...
Quit the AOA, and blow it up.
Might as well be a G and L day working individual, thinking only of yourself.
The problem with the naysayers (who are very necessary for their alternate and differing opinions) in this association, is that the final solution is "I'm going to quit". Too many adults acting like children, stamping their feet and whining like a spoiled child, instead of thinking of the long game.
Good luck to you and your stunning idea. I'm sure the GMA has a great contract ready for you.
The AOA is far from perfect, but ONLY as a group do we have any chance.
Quit the AOA, and blow it up.
Might as well be a G and L day working individual, thinking only of yourself.
The problem with the naysayers (who are very necessary for their alternate and differing opinions) in this association, is that the final solution is "I'm going to quit". Too many adults acting like children, stamping their feet and whining like a spoiled child, instead of thinking of the long game.
Good luck to you and your stunning idea. I'm sure the GMA has a great contract ready for you.
The AOA is far from perfect, but ONLY as a group do we have any chance.
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Clear.right
Having the AOA only legitimizes the companies will.
If there wasn't one there would lots of Guerrilla warfare going on on both sides.
Better or worse? Whose to say.
But the AOA works too keep the pilots quiet and in order. It doesn't work for them.
Atleast not for about 13 years.
It's a tool for the company. Not you.
Having the AOA only legitimizes the companies will.
If there wasn't one there would lots of Guerrilla warfare going on on both sides.
Better or worse? Whose to say.
But the AOA works too keep the pilots quiet and in order. It doesn't work for them.
Atleast not for about 13 years.
It's a tool for the company. Not you.
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Clear right,
You fail to comprehend what I'm saying. All your arguments are valid for a functioning union with collective bargaining powers and a membership based on solidarity.
Regrettably, this association of ours is broken with cracks so deep it wouldn't hold together in a breeze never mind a full blown storm. . That is not the fault of our hard working and ever hopeful presidents and comittee members who despite the constant tirade of deception and taunts by managements still try to play "the long game" as you say. Once again our good faith has been taken advantage of by cold managers laughing at our sheer level of naivity and misguided trust.
There is a difference between someone quitting the AOA and discontinuing the organisation alltogether. We've been down this chest thumping path before and it has never ended well.
So unless you're willing to stand up and rattle the troops like a regular braveheart I suggest we try the one thing that might actually force the companys hand.
You fail to comprehend what I'm saying. All your arguments are valid for a functioning union with collective bargaining powers and a membership based on solidarity.
Regrettably, this association of ours is broken with cracks so deep it wouldn't hold together in a breeze never mind a full blown storm. . That is not the fault of our hard working and ever hopeful presidents and comittee members who despite the constant tirade of deception and taunts by managements still try to play "the long game" as you say. Once again our good faith has been taken advantage of by cold managers laughing at our sheer level of naivity and misguided trust.
There is a difference between someone quitting the AOA and discontinuing the organisation alltogether. We've been down this chest thumping path before and it has never ended well.
So unless you're willing to stand up and rattle the troops like a regular braveheart I suggest we try the one thing that might actually force the companys hand.
Last edited by quadspeed; 3rd May 2014 at 10:25.
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I'm with Quad and TwoT on this one
I was around for MSS and saw exactly how many "staunch" union members followed the union's guidance.
Since then we have never had a president/GC that was interested in moulding the AOA into a cohesive unit that could present a united front. Probably as much due to the average members interest as the Committee.
From ST and his absolute determination to push through RP04 and so the demise of 5-4-3,
to MG and his cutting off of the 49ers and implementing credit free reserve,
and then PW and his self interested acceptance of RA65 at the cost to all junior pilots,
The AOA has been used as a conduit by the Company to legitimize degradations to our contract. Even the last pay deal had a 5% cut to Junior CN wages which eventually would affect anyone reaching that level and yet this devisive deal was pushed through as well.
So here we are perhaps about to fight a battle as a disjointed rabble all with personal agendas, from based guys, expats in HK to those on local terms. What great preparation for this eventuality the AOA has done over the last four months, ah but we now employ experts from the States that can continue DD's amazing rebirth of the union.
The only real power is in the hands of the STC's and TC's who ensure that qualified crew keep coming online and pass their PCs. Imagine how quickly we would run out of crews (and simulator time) if people weren't passing their PCs, not that this is going to happen since the AOA disenfranchised this group by ignoring any request for even CPI increases to their (A scale) contracts years ago.
Yep you reap what you sow and I can't see any Genetically Modified seeds in the AOA's fields.
Since then we have never had a president/GC that was interested in moulding the AOA into a cohesive unit that could present a united front. Probably as much due to the average members interest as the Committee.
From ST and his absolute determination to push through RP04 and so the demise of 5-4-3,
to MG and his cutting off of the 49ers and implementing credit free reserve,
and then PW and his self interested acceptance of RA65 at the cost to all junior pilots,
The AOA has been used as a conduit by the Company to legitimize degradations to our contract. Even the last pay deal had a 5% cut to Junior CN wages which eventually would affect anyone reaching that level and yet this devisive deal was pushed through as well.
So here we are perhaps about to fight a battle as a disjointed rabble all with personal agendas, from based guys, expats in HK to those on local terms. What great preparation for this eventuality the AOA has done over the last four months, ah but we now employ experts from the States that can continue DD's amazing rebirth of the union.
The only real power is in the hands of the STC's and TC's who ensure that qualified crew keep coming online and pass their PCs. Imagine how quickly we would run out of crews (and simulator time) if people weren't passing their PCs, not that this is going to happen since the AOA disenfranchised this group by ignoring any request for even CPI increases to their (A scale) contracts years ago.
Yep you reap what you sow and I can't see any Genetically Modified seeds in the AOA's fields.
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CX-HOR
So let me get this straight, you would have STC's and TC's fail people in the sims to screw the company over??
So how you going to feel when you fail yours??
All this will do is undermine the integrity of the individuals, company won't care, they will just call you back (within the rules) for midnight sims till you get it right.
Seems to me you want to pass the buck of action to a group you are not part of, as far as I can tell anyway.
Contract compliance is the only weapon we have, albeit, the company probably plans on that anyway and if you happen to slip and give more, well then thats just a bonus.
Fact is, until people leave or the recruitment "waiting list" dries up, they don't feel the need to do anything. Thats a loose quote from a former GMA anyway!
So, go sick when you unfit, tired and play everything by the book. Don't complete the mission and then whinge about it afterwards
So let me get this straight, you would have STC's and TC's fail people in the sims to screw the company over??
So how you going to feel when you fail yours??
All this will do is undermine the integrity of the individuals, company won't care, they will just call you back (within the rules) for midnight sims till you get it right.
Seems to me you want to pass the buck of action to a group you are not part of, as far as I can tell anyway.
Contract compliance is the only weapon we have, albeit, the company probably plans on that anyway and if you happen to slip and give more, well then thats just a bonus.
Fact is, until people leave or the recruitment "waiting list" dries up, they don't feel the need to do anything. Thats a loose quote from a former GMA anyway!
So, go sick when you unfit, tired and play everything by the book. Don't complete the mission and then whinge about it afterwards
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Asian Eagle,
I am more making the point that a regulatory sim that is not complete for whatever reason, be it sickness or poor performance has a huge multiplier effect and burden on Crew Control.
Eg sickness, the sick guy may have up to 10 days or so of normal flights cancelled requiring a replacement pilot for each flight before he can be rescheduled for his regulatory sim (if he doesn't agree to work on G days).
Then another sim slot with crew up/other pilot AND STC has to be organised on an already tight schedule.
Sims are important and shouldn't be done if you are feeling tired/fatigued or sick which you probably wouldn't know until the last minute, requiring a crew-up pilot to be called off reserve to replace you.
All huge disruption for one event. Just look at what happened when a checker with an invalid check authorisation signed off PCs recently.
Of course not doing anything during Christmas, New Year, CNY and now easter has weakened the effect of any CC. Yep great chess move to lump in all negotiations together on a good faith basis and wait for all the peak periods to pass. I mean who would have expected them to want to cut crew complements when even in the FAQs for the new AFTLs GMA wrote There is no intention to reduce crew complements on both three and four man operations pending the conclusion of RP negotiations. Yep the recent announcement was a complete surprise.
I am more making the point that a regulatory sim that is not complete for whatever reason, be it sickness or poor performance has a huge multiplier effect and burden on Crew Control.
Eg sickness, the sick guy may have up to 10 days or so of normal flights cancelled requiring a replacement pilot for each flight before he can be rescheduled for his regulatory sim (if he doesn't agree to work on G days).
Then another sim slot with crew up/other pilot AND STC has to be organised on an already tight schedule.
Sims are important and shouldn't be done if you are feeling tired/fatigued or sick which you probably wouldn't know until the last minute, requiring a crew-up pilot to be called off reserve to replace you.
All huge disruption for one event. Just look at what happened when a checker with an invalid check authorisation signed off PCs recently.
Of course not doing anything during Christmas, New Year, CNY and now easter has weakened the effect of any CC. Yep great chess move to lump in all negotiations together on a good faith basis and wait for all the peak periods to pass. I mean who would have expected them to want to cut crew complements when even in the FAQs for the new AFTLs GMA wrote There is no intention to reduce crew complements on both three and four man operations pending the conclusion of RP negotiations. Yep the recent announcement was a complete surprise.
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HKALPA?
Quad, you really don't know how HKALPA works do you?
The HKAOA to all intent runs HKALPA. HKALPA is merely the vehicle for all HKG unions affiliated to HKALPA to have IFALPA protection. HKALPA cannot negotiate anything for you with your employer.
And it was HKAOA staff and GC members that got Captain Lettich out of HKG, not HKALPA. Yes they used contacts in IFALPA to help with getting him home but that merely demonstrates how the worldwide brotherhood of pilots can get together when necessary.
BTW Captain Lettich wasn't even a member of an IFALPA union but the HKAOA guys still went in to help him.
The HKAOA to all intent runs HKALPA. HKALPA is merely the vehicle for all HKG unions affiliated to HKALPA to have IFALPA protection. HKALPA cannot negotiate anything for you with your employer.
And it was HKAOA staff and GC members that got Captain Lettich out of HKG, not HKALPA. Yes they used contacts in IFALPA to help with getting him home but that merely demonstrates how the worldwide brotherhood of pilots can get together when necessary.
BTW Captain Lettich wasn't even a member of an IFALPA union but the HKAOA guys still went in to help him.
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Quad, you really don't know how HKALPA works do you?
HKALPA cannot negotiate anything for you with your employer.
And it was HKAOA staff and GC members that got Captain Lettich out of HKG, not HKALPA. Yes they used contacts in IFALPA to help with getting him home but that merely demonstrates how the worldwide brotherhood of pilots can get together when necessary.
BTW Captain Lettich wasn't even a member of an IFALPA union but the HKAOA guys still went in to help him.
Listen, disband the HKAOA on the basis of managements utter refusal to recognize and deal with the "union" in any other way then name only. The HKAOA has no collective bargaining powers, has no influence, receives no respect and at the end is held responsible failing to stop the rot by all who look upon.
The HKAOA has beein cleaning up the company's mess since 1991. While our volunteers and leadership spends endless hours trying to manage the worst of it, managers ramp up the pressure to keep us deep in our own defensive zone unable to plan even a week ahead.
When all is said and done nothing would change for the individual pilot regardless of the HKAOAs existance. Tell us about solidarity and then tell the story of the SO who was accused of rape in New York. No other example better shows how utterly alone a 3-month contract pilot stands and how the individual contract, regardless of how many negotiations we have, letters we write and lanyards we wear, still remains an individual contract.
If the company wants individual contracts then stop sheltering them from the downside of 2700 individual contracts. As it now stands, we're giving them all the benefits as if we had collective bargaining and collective contracts while we receive all the downsides of not having them bar none.
You don't need the HKAOA to be a member of IFALPA. You need HKALPA. Which, as you've graciously pointed out, has no dealings with said company.
Last edited by quadspeed; 7th May 2014 at 08:39.
Quadspeed - You fail to comprehend what I'm saying. All your arguments are valid for a functioning union with collective bargaining powers and a membership based on solidarity.
You are legally able to conduct CC. In this regard you have far more leverage than any ALPA union. You have more power - Unless you choose not to use it, or decide to meekly ignore it.
The concept of individual contracts empowering pilots is asinine. Historically it has weakened their ability to improve their lot. JetBlue attempted that experiment. They voted for ALPA representation last month; after being led around by the nose by management.
Pilots on individual contracts, with no Association is managements wet dream.