Hkaoa, See The Writing
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Hkaoa, See The Writing
Time for an immediate withdrawal of the ban, methinks.
It has been succinctly stated numerous times that the aoa has lost the bubble. The lack of support by the majority of pilots really smarts.
I am about to be offered a job. I need a job more than a 49er (believe me). I do not want to cross a picket line but the union has blown it.
If there is anyone out there who can change my mind, please go ahead. Sorry, there's a ban in place does not cut it. 9/11 changed it all. I have been unemployed since November and I need the money.
If there are any recent upgrades who can pay me to say "no" I may be able to stay afloat and do so....no? I fear the ban is crumbling...........
It has been succinctly stated numerous times that the aoa has lost the bubble. The lack of support by the majority of pilots really smarts.
I am about to be offered a job. I need a job more than a 49er (believe me). I do not want to cross a picket line but the union has blown it.
If there is anyone out there who can change my mind, please go ahead. Sorry, there's a ban in place does not cut it. 9/11 changed it all. I have been unemployed since November and I need the money.
If there are any recent upgrades who can pay me to say "no" I may be able to stay afloat and do so....no? I fear the ban is crumbling...........
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Reality of the situation ....
"Madrabbits" ....
With all due respect my friend, it would appear the chances of you getting your job back are very VERY slim (at best).
The ONLY way a union can be effective is for its members to have solidarity. It HAS to be a "one for all and all for one" sort of mentality. If not, then the organization is, for all intents and purposes, useless. Someone should have pointed this out to the association back in the early 90’s when it started down this road.
If the Cathay pilot group at least had some solidarity, you might have a chance. Cathay employs roughly 1600 pilots, and only about 1000 are members of the AOA. Of course the number of non-members is growing by the day, since the new hires are not invited to join and are being "black listed". It would almost appear that there are some in the AOA leadership who are intent on destroying themselves!
In any event, if you combine the lack of solidarity with the laws in Hong Kong being stacked hugely in favour of the company, then it seems to me evident you are dreaming in Technicolor if you think the AOA can force the company into giving you your job back.
Withdraw the hiring ban, all industrial action, and approach the company with a new (more moderate) leadership from the AOA, and I believe you might see them agree to hire a few of the 49ers back (that’s the best case scenario). If the AOA does not take this position, then they will find a company who continues to hire from a never ending pool of pilots willing to accept positions (ban or no ban), and they will see their association continue to dilute itself into oblivion!
Sorry, but that, I believe, is the reality of the situation.
With all due respect my friend, it would appear the chances of you getting your job back are very VERY slim (at best).
The ONLY way a union can be effective is for its members to have solidarity. It HAS to be a "one for all and all for one" sort of mentality. If not, then the organization is, for all intents and purposes, useless. Someone should have pointed this out to the association back in the early 90’s when it started down this road.
If the Cathay pilot group at least had some solidarity, you might have a chance. Cathay employs roughly 1600 pilots, and only about 1000 are members of the AOA. Of course the number of non-members is growing by the day, since the new hires are not invited to join and are being "black listed". It would almost appear that there are some in the AOA leadership who are intent on destroying themselves!
In any event, if you combine the lack of solidarity with the laws in Hong Kong being stacked hugely in favour of the company, then it seems to me evident you are dreaming in Technicolor if you think the AOA can force the company into giving you your job back.
Withdraw the hiring ban, all industrial action, and approach the company with a new (more moderate) leadership from the AOA, and I believe you might see them agree to hire a few of the 49ers back (that’s the best case scenario). If the AOA does not take this position, then they will find a company who continues to hire from a never ending pool of pilots willing to accept positions (ban or no ban), and they will see their association continue to dilute itself into oblivion!
Sorry, but that, I believe, is the reality of the situation.
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dazed_2002, why don't you educate yourself on the last 10 years. The company started this, not the AOA and the membership numbers are closer to 1300. Funny how there are all sorts of new usernames all of a sudden???
Gooney,
Yes, some new names around. Yours included!
Typical tactic. When presented with an argument you don't like, go straight for the credibility of the opponent. Anyone disageeing with you is either a "Union Buster" or a company stooge.
It's an effective mind-set because it means you can go your merry way and ignore well meaning critisism from anyone else.
My major problem with the ban was and remains that it won't work, will fragment your union, and will create a class of scapegoats who will be blamed for its' failure.
Are you under the impression that the ban alone will get the 49ers their jobs back? If not what else is HKAOA doing? If nothing, why is an ineffective strategy which weakens the union and victimises younger pilots being pursued?
But then don't listen to me. I have a different point of view, so I must be a "Union Buster" mustn't I?
Yes, some new names around. Yours included!
Typical tactic. When presented with an argument you don't like, go straight for the credibility of the opponent. Anyone disageeing with you is either a "Union Buster" or a company stooge.
It's an effective mind-set because it means you can go your merry way and ignore well meaning critisism from anyone else.
My major problem with the ban was and remains that it won't work, will fragment your union, and will create a class of scapegoats who will be blamed for its' failure.
Are you under the impression that the ban alone will get the 49ers their jobs back? If not what else is HKAOA doing? If nothing, why is an ineffective strategy which weakens the union and victimises younger pilots being pursued?
But then don't listen to me. I have a different point of view, so I must be a "Union Buster" mustn't I?
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THE SCAB
THE SCAB
After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.
A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.
No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.
Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.
Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a
commision in the British army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.
- attributed to Jack London
After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.
A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.
No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.
Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.
Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a
commision in the British army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.
- attributed to Jack London
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What a nasty post. Is this an indication of the mind set of the militants. Don't disagree. Don't try to discuss, just toe the line Mister/ Missus or else. Scabs, what scabs? There is no lock out, there is no picket line and the jobs of the 49ers have already been filled by their own AOA 'mates'. For the moderate AOA members who read Pprune I hope Bengis post fills you with the same disgust it fills me. SS tactics against our own, the AOA is losing the plot, hence the re-iteration of the same old tired rhetoric.
Benji,
Does reasnoble discussion and critisism of a Union make one a scab? Is the idea that anyone who dissents from the committee point of view is a lower form of life and beneath contempt?
Don't get me wrong, this is an effective strategy. It kept the Soviet Union together for decades (at the cost of millions of lives, but sacrifice the few to keep control of the many.). It still works very well in North Korea.
Union members taking resnoble action to improve their lot is fine and noble. Bullies using vitriol and hate to use others to fight their battles is cowardly and wrong.
Does reasnoble discussion and critisism of a Union make one a scab? Is the idea that anyone who dissents from the committee point of view is a lower form of life and beneath contempt?
Don't get me wrong, this is an effective strategy. It kept the Soviet Union together for decades (at the cost of millions of lives, but sacrifice the few to keep control of the many.). It still works very well in North Korea.
Union members taking resnoble action to improve their lot is fine and noble. Bullies using vitriol and hate to use others to fight their battles is cowardly and wrong.
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The most worrying aspect of all threads in the Fragrant Harbour forum relating to labour relations at CX is that union members - or those purporting to be such - are themselves utterly ignorant about the term "scab". You can only be a "scab" if there's a lock-out - can we please accept this as universal understanding of this word!
Considering the label of this web site, some of the postings here have been thoroughly irrational and devoid of any logic - certainly less than reflective of professionals arguing about the merits and logics of a case.
Considering the label of this web site, some of the postings here have been thoroughly irrational and devoid of any logic - certainly less than reflective of professionals arguing about the merits and logics of a case.
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Alpha Leader
I am an HKAOA member and I rather resent your assertion that union members "are themselves utterly ignorant about the term "scab". You can only be a "scab" if there's a lock-out….."
Now, that might be one generally accepted understanding but one definition from the Encarta online dictionary is (admittedly a slang entry),
dislikable person: somebody regarded as despicable or dislikable (slang insult),
whereas, my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Volume II (1990) says inter alia:
"(orig. U.S.) A workman who refuses to join an organised movement on behalf of his trade 1811."
Could I also please remind you that the word was first used by our DFO no less than three times in one paragraph, in his letter to the President of the HKAOA on November 16th 2001. The HKAOA had always used the term "replacement workers".
You ask "can we please accept this as universal understanding of this word!" and I believe the answer is no.
Thank you.
I am an HKAOA member and I rather resent your assertion that union members "are themselves utterly ignorant about the term "scab". You can only be a "scab" if there's a lock-out….."
Now, that might be one generally accepted understanding but one definition from the Encarta online dictionary is (admittedly a slang entry),
dislikable person: somebody regarded as despicable or dislikable (slang insult),
whereas, my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, Volume II (1990) says inter alia:
"(orig. U.S.) A workman who refuses to join an organised movement on behalf of his trade 1811."
Could I also please remind you that the word was first used by our DFO no less than three times in one paragraph, in his letter to the President of the HKAOA on November 16th 2001. The HKAOA had always used the term "replacement workers".
You ask "can we please accept this as universal understanding of this word!" and I believe the answer is no.
Thank you.
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Goonybird,
I am fully aware of what's happened there in the past 10 years thank you very much. In fact, I think maybe it is you my dear friend who needs some education.
If you were a relatively astute individual, you'd have picked up on the fact that I wasn't insinuating who started the fight. I was simply pointing out that the AOA has made some (IMHO) foolish decisions over the years, and that is at least part of the reason why they are in this predicament. Admittedly there are other circumstances beyond the AOA’s control.
If you can locate the book Flying The Line (Part 1), please read it. It’s the history of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) in the United States. Back in the early days they did not have the sorts of laws to protect workers that they have today. It was much the same then as labour laws are today in Hong Kong. The labour laws in most western democracies support labour unions. The labour laws in Hong Kong do not.
Labour unions essentially force companies into providing a certain level of wages and working conditions. They do this by using the only weapon they have, which is of course the threat of strike. If that weapon is taken away or it is unable to function, then the union is essentially irrelevant. This is, unfortunately, where the HKAOA finds itself today.
The level of wages and working conditions for non-union workers is, for the most part, governed by supply and demand economics. As I said in a previous post, there are no shortages of pilots who are willing to accept permanent positions with CX. If the HKAOA wants to avoid imploding on itself, then I would suggest it consider a “180” in its tactics.
If all I get in response to this post is more ranting on about scabs and the like, then it is quite clear my learned colleagues from the AOA who write such nonsense have their heads so far up their A$$ that it’s a waste of my time to share these opinions.
I am fully aware of what's happened there in the past 10 years thank you very much. In fact, I think maybe it is you my dear friend who needs some education.
If you were a relatively astute individual, you'd have picked up on the fact that I wasn't insinuating who started the fight. I was simply pointing out that the AOA has made some (IMHO) foolish decisions over the years, and that is at least part of the reason why they are in this predicament. Admittedly there are other circumstances beyond the AOA’s control.
If you can locate the book Flying The Line (Part 1), please read it. It’s the history of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) in the United States. Back in the early days they did not have the sorts of laws to protect workers that they have today. It was much the same then as labour laws are today in Hong Kong. The labour laws in most western democracies support labour unions. The labour laws in Hong Kong do not.
Labour unions essentially force companies into providing a certain level of wages and working conditions. They do this by using the only weapon they have, which is of course the threat of strike. If that weapon is taken away or it is unable to function, then the union is essentially irrelevant. This is, unfortunately, where the HKAOA finds itself today.
The level of wages and working conditions for non-union workers is, for the most part, governed by supply and demand economics. As I said in a previous post, there are no shortages of pilots who are willing to accept permanent positions with CX. If the HKAOA wants to avoid imploding on itself, then I would suggest it consider a “180” in its tactics.
If all I get in response to this post is more ranting on about scabs and the like, then it is quite clear my learned colleagues from the AOA who write such nonsense have their heads so far up their A$$ that it’s a waste of my time to share these opinions.
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Dazed,
I'm not saying the AOA has done or is doing a perfect job. There will always be mistakes made by both sides of any dispute. However, I think we have given in to the company far too many times and the time has come to stand up for ourselves and our professional careers. Management have proven time and again that by giving them what they want means, they take, take, and take some more, nevr giving anything in return. I'm not a militant, but it's been proven that capitulation will get us nowhere fast! I'm open to any ideas other than capitulation!
Wizofoz, yes my name is rarely on here, but you'll not I have been registerd since some time in 99, not May 2002 as many on this particular board seem to be.
Oh yeah dazed there is another great book out there which I'm sure you have heard of, written by Gordon Bethune, "From Worst to First". The problems he faced, most of which are acreditted to Frank Larenzo, are very similar to current day CX! Marty Levitt's book is worth a read as well!
I'm not saying the AOA has done or is doing a perfect job. There will always be mistakes made by both sides of any dispute. However, I think we have given in to the company far too many times and the time has come to stand up for ourselves and our professional careers. Management have proven time and again that by giving them what they want means, they take, take, and take some more, nevr giving anything in return. I'm not a militant, but it's been proven that capitulation will get us nowhere fast! I'm open to any ideas other than capitulation!
Wizofoz, yes my name is rarely on here, but you'll not I have been registerd since some time in 99, not May 2002 as many on this particular board seem to be.
Oh yeah dazed there is another great book out there which I'm sure you have heard of, written by Gordon Bethune, "From Worst to First". The problems he faced, most of which are acreditted to Frank Larenzo, are very similar to current day CX! Marty Levitt's book is worth a read as well!
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Daxon:
You forgot to list the more relevant entry in the Encarta online dictionary, which is:
strikebreaker: somebody who continues to work during a strike, or who does a striker's job during a strike (disapproving)
I'm sure that was only an oversight on your part, but perhaps symptomatic for this whole dispute - because there is no strike, period
As for the definition in the Shorter Oxford dictionary, which relates to "workman"....well, there should be a difference between the behaviour of workmen and professionals, which was the very point I was making in my posting.
You forgot to list the more relevant entry in the Encarta online dictionary, which is:
strikebreaker: somebody who continues to work during a strike, or who does a striker's job during a strike (disapproving)
I'm sure that was only an oversight on your part, but perhaps symptomatic for this whole dispute - because there is no strike, period
As for the definition in the Shorter Oxford dictionary, which relates to "workman"....well, there should be a difference between the behaviour of workmen and professionals, which was the very point I was making in my posting.
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Alpha Leader:
Actually, I didn’t forget. As I said, "that might be one generally accepted understanding but one definition from the Encarta online dictionary is (admittedly a slang entry)"
Could you just remind us all about your professional qualifications and exactly how you fit in with the ongoing problems please? Presumably you have a long standing and broad understanding of all the issues.
Thank you.
Actually, I didn’t forget. As I said, "that might be one generally accepted understanding but one definition from the Encarta online dictionary is (admittedly a slang entry)"
Could you just remind us all about your professional qualifications and exactly how you fit in with the ongoing problems please? Presumably you have a long standing and broad understanding of all the issues.
Thank you.
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Daxon:
Thank you for clarifying that point.
Actually, defining your location in terms of the Watford gap as reference point (as opposed to southern China), I'm wondering what your long-standing ties are with this part of the world?
FYI: I am not with CX management
Dazed_2002:
You've defined the problem very nicely: the rule of supply and demand. If there is any place in this world where that rule applies unequivocally, it's Hong Kong. Look around, there is not even a waterfront union to speak of. You look for the best deal and accept it or get out of town.
Thank you for clarifying that point.
Actually, defining your location in terms of the Watford gap as reference point (as opposed to southern China), I'm wondering what your long-standing ties are with this part of the world?
FYI: I am not with CX management
Dazed_2002:
You've defined the problem very nicely: the rule of supply and demand. If there is any place in this world where that rule applies unequivocally, it's Hong Kong. Look around, there is not even a waterfront union to speak of. You look for the best deal and accept it or get out of town.
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 22nd May 2002 at 06:54.
