CX Wannabes, Read this
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CX Wannabes, Read this
Hello, I’m Shelley C. with an ANN Update. As the AOA calls on Cathay Pacific to return to the bargaining table, many in and outside of the aviation industry are watching closely. It’s been nearly a year since the 49ers lost their jobs and Cathay management continue to use classic union busting techniques to intimidate the pilots. The tactics come as no surprise to Western Illinois University History Professor Dr. George Hopkins. Hopkins is a nationally recognized authority on the history of the airline pilot unionization. He is also the author or editor of several books including: “The Airline Pilots: A Study in Elite Unionization. Dr. Hopkins has visited the AOA in Hong Kong and joins us today by telephone to talk more about the lingering dispute.
{HOPKINS
Well, from the beginning of the time I began studying this topic and that was back in the 1960’s as a doctoral dissertation, I’ve always been amazed at the similarities of disputes across time. It is always about management wanting more work for less money. It really never varies too far off of that norm and as long as pilots have some institutional means of responding to looking out for themselves and that is always by a union of some sort there are always going to be disputes. Historically, a dispute between labour and management is always seeking the middle ground. One old pilot once told me about the great old days; you know you have these fights and they are often quite bitter but they are like a marriage. When you have to fight fair, because when you fight fair in a marriage that means you get back in bed together when the fight is over. There is always a tendency and it’s always management that does this, to carry the fight beyond it to an unfair level where it makes it almost impossible to get back in bed. Now, the pilots have to get back in bed. Their skills are transferable but in a professional sense it’s disastrous to transfer these skills to a separate carrier so they are really committed to their companies often in a way managers often are not. The pilots have far more in stake in my view in these disputes then do the companies in question. Now if you look through the long history given this general parameter of labor management disputes in the airline industry, what you find is pilots are almost always the ones on the receiving ends of what might be called unfair practices. That form of unfair practice in the U.S. takes the form of hostage taking. That’s the letting go of pilots or selective firings of pilots. Sort of intimidate the rest of the pilot group and hold them hostage. It is always about some form of dispute with respect to pay or working conditions and so the problem here as I see it is the Cathay Pacific pilots are on the receiving end of one of these unfair techniques; this hostage taking or firing selectively of a cross section of pilots who have come to be known of course as the 49ers. It is certainly nothing new but it doesn’t make it any less reprehensible that it is an old tactic of management. That is my general view. The pilots do have in the United States, thanks to a body of labor law known as the Railway Labor Act they have institutional methods of responding to these kinds of things through a grievance process or something called the System Board of Adjustment. Unfortunately, that is not available to the Cathay pilots. They are caught in a situation where corporate power is unchecked and also where the structure of labour law in the form of crown colony Hong Kong does not give them much in the way of means of approach to remedy this unfair response as I see it. Or this kind of response will make it difficult for people to get back in bed making it thus not a fair marital fight. The great weapon at this point, as is always true in pilot unions, is their solidarity. IF they can stick together internally and from what I saw in Hong Kong they are doing a good job of that then they will be able to bring pressure on management in a variety of subtle ways short of a work stoppage. Always the ultimate or nuclear weapon as it were of a withdrawal of service where you can carry a contract dispute to the level of simply depriving the company of service. I suspect that Cathay Pacific believes these pilots will not strike. It is always a very dramatic step for pilot unions to deprive the company of their services because they have so much at stake in the success of this airline; far more than management does.
{SHELLEY Dr. Hopkins, Cathay’s pilots are calling on management to agree to an independent mediator to resolve this current impasse. It’s my understanding that there has been no response from the company, what is your take on this?
{HOPKINS In the long history of mediation in these disputes, where it reaches what under the terms of the Railway Labor Act in the United States is called an ‘economic contest’ that’s the Railway Labor Act’s way of referring to a strike. There is always a call for independent mediators. Other times there are other techniques outside the Railway Labor Act’s structure for independent mediators to be involved. I would find that it is almost always that the side that is most anxious to settle the dispute on an equitable basis is the one who is calling for mediation. The one who resists mediation is usually the side with something to hide or something it wishes the public did not know about. Usually, this decision to hammer the pilots, than they reject all attempts at mediation.
{SHELLEYThat was Dr. George Hopkins, professor and author. We’ll have the 2nd part of Dr. Hopkins interview coming up. Thanks for watching and have a nice day.
CX management got rid of 50+ great Pilots and individuals with an average of twelve years and 8,000 hrs of highly professional service to Cathay Pacific. One guy had 24 years of service and was six months away from retirement. The 49ers list includes a great majority of highly intelligent natural born leaders (obviously a threat to management). What on earth makes you think that they will treat you any different? If you have always been a leader and a winner, why change it now? Be patient and good things will come to you.
In joining this Company at this time, you are only helping the management in perpetuating one of the greatest travesties of civil aviation. They have kidnapped the « fun of flying » from everyone in the Company. The ongoing problems will NOT GO AWAY after you have joined, they will only get worse BECAUSE YOU have joined. How can anyone even think about helping this corrupt management in a time like this? Stand up and have some moral fibre and wait until this dispute is over.
{HOPKINS
Well, from the beginning of the time I began studying this topic and that was back in the 1960’s as a doctoral dissertation, I’ve always been amazed at the similarities of disputes across time. It is always about management wanting more work for less money. It really never varies too far off of that norm and as long as pilots have some institutional means of responding to looking out for themselves and that is always by a union of some sort there are always going to be disputes. Historically, a dispute between labour and management is always seeking the middle ground. One old pilot once told me about the great old days; you know you have these fights and they are often quite bitter but they are like a marriage. When you have to fight fair, because when you fight fair in a marriage that means you get back in bed together when the fight is over. There is always a tendency and it’s always management that does this, to carry the fight beyond it to an unfair level where it makes it almost impossible to get back in bed. Now, the pilots have to get back in bed. Their skills are transferable but in a professional sense it’s disastrous to transfer these skills to a separate carrier so they are really committed to their companies often in a way managers often are not. The pilots have far more in stake in my view in these disputes then do the companies in question. Now if you look through the long history given this general parameter of labor management disputes in the airline industry, what you find is pilots are almost always the ones on the receiving ends of what might be called unfair practices. That form of unfair practice in the U.S. takes the form of hostage taking. That’s the letting go of pilots or selective firings of pilots. Sort of intimidate the rest of the pilot group and hold them hostage. It is always about some form of dispute with respect to pay or working conditions and so the problem here as I see it is the Cathay Pacific pilots are on the receiving end of one of these unfair techniques; this hostage taking or firing selectively of a cross section of pilots who have come to be known of course as the 49ers. It is certainly nothing new but it doesn’t make it any less reprehensible that it is an old tactic of management. That is my general view. The pilots do have in the United States, thanks to a body of labor law known as the Railway Labor Act they have institutional methods of responding to these kinds of things through a grievance process or something called the System Board of Adjustment. Unfortunately, that is not available to the Cathay pilots. They are caught in a situation where corporate power is unchecked and also where the structure of labour law in the form of crown colony Hong Kong does not give them much in the way of means of approach to remedy this unfair response as I see it. Or this kind of response will make it difficult for people to get back in bed making it thus not a fair marital fight. The great weapon at this point, as is always true in pilot unions, is their solidarity. IF they can stick together internally and from what I saw in Hong Kong they are doing a good job of that then they will be able to bring pressure on management in a variety of subtle ways short of a work stoppage. Always the ultimate or nuclear weapon as it were of a withdrawal of service where you can carry a contract dispute to the level of simply depriving the company of service. I suspect that Cathay Pacific believes these pilots will not strike. It is always a very dramatic step for pilot unions to deprive the company of their services because they have so much at stake in the success of this airline; far more than management does. {SHELLEY
Dr. Hopkins, Cathay’s pilots are calling on management to agree to an independent mediator to resolve this current impasse. It’s my understanding that there has been no response from the company, what is your take on this? {HOPKINS
In the long history of mediation in these disputes, where it reaches what under the terms of the Railway Labor Act in the United States is called an ‘economic contest’ that’s the Railway Labor Act’s way of referring to a strike. There is always a call for independent mediators. Other times there are other techniques outside the Railway Labor Act’s structure for independent mediators to be involved. I would find that it is almost always that the side that is most anxious to settle the dispute on an equitable basis is the one who is calling for mediation. The one who resists mediation is usually the side with something to hide or something it wishes the public did not know about. Usually, this decision to hammer the pilots, than they reject all attempts at mediation. {SHELLEY
That was Dr. George Hopkins, professor and author. We’ll have the 2nd part of Dr. Hopkins interview coming up. Thanks for watching and have a nice day. CX management got rid of 50+ great Pilots and individuals with an average of twelve years and 8,000 hrs of highly professional service to Cathay Pacific. One guy had 24 years of service and was six months away from retirement. The 49ers list includes a great majority of highly intelligent natural born leaders (obviously a threat to management). What on earth makes you think that they will treat you any different? If you have always been a leader and a winner, why change it now? Be patient and good things will come to you.
In joining this Company at this time, you are only helping the management in perpetuating one of the greatest travesties of civil aviation. They have kidnapped the « fun of flying » from everyone in the Company. The ongoing problems will NOT GO AWAY after you have joined, they will only get worse BECAUSE YOU have joined. How can anyone even think about helping this corrupt management in a time like this? Stand up and have some moral fibre and wait until this dispute is over.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It is similarly prudent to remember that if an employee - ANY employee, including a pilot - has a standards problem at work, that employee is dealt with on an individual basis, perhaps by way of remedial training, counselling, and if necessary, termination.
Management do not "take on" the entire group of one section of workers unless they fully intend confronting them and replacing them - OR they (management) have an ulterior motive.
In the case of the pilot/cabin crew/mechanics being attacked as a group, management is FULLY aware that their actions will cause a ripple effect through the ENTIRE company, which if prolonged will result in a (hopefully) short term downturn in business and revenue, giving management an "excuse" for downsizing and trimming ALL employee areas. As a distraction, the focus is kept on the pivotal group - in CX's case, the pilots - as management's knife trims away.
Management do not "take on" the entire group of one section of workers unless they fully intend confronting them and replacing them - OR they (management) have an ulterior motive.
In the case of the pilot/cabin crew/mechanics being attacked as a group, management is FULLY aware that their actions will cause a ripple effect through the ENTIRE company, which if prolonged will result in a (hopefully) short term downturn in business and revenue, giving management an "excuse" for downsizing and trimming ALL employee areas. As a distraction, the focus is kept on the pivotal group - in CX's case, the pilots - as management's knife trims away.
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CX Wannabes, read this
A very articulate post and pleasant to read. However, leaves a lot of questions unanswered. If pilot body is so 'together' then why didn't the union institute a proper ban? Upgrades etc. No one has ever tried to answer that. The Company has responded, in a draconian fashion, to an increase in industrial action after many years of union action against them. I am no rocket scientist but even I saw that coming. My sympathies to my friends amongst the 49ers but the union brought this on you. What has the union achieved in 8 years of whinging and taking action against the hand that feeds it? An effective 4 per cent pay cut for members, loss of 50 odd jobs, ridicule in the world of aviation both internationally and worse within it's own company and don't forget to wear your hat. If you think the 49ers are coming home I'd like a bit of what you are smoking.
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Very good analogy used by Mr. Hopkins.
Interesting how labor disputes mirror married couples. However, Mr. Hopkins forgot to mention this couple's children...like in a real marriage dispute, it is the children that are taken hostage!
I guess Mr. Hopkins is not aware of the hiring ban, or perhaps that issue was not brought up by the objective interviewer...
Reject pilot looking for a foster home...
Interesting how labor disputes mirror married couples. However, Mr. Hopkins forgot to mention this couple's children...like in a real marriage dispute, it is the children that are taken hostage!
I guess Mr. Hopkins is not aware of the hiring ban, or perhaps that issue was not brought up by the objective interviewer...
Reject pilot looking for a foster home...
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give me a break!
mr hopkins is probably a very nice gentleman but is living in the days when the waterfront workers in Australia were earning more money than the Prime Minister and everytime the AFAP said "jump", TAA and Ansett replied "how high!" doesn't work like that anymore chaps - ask my brother who was involved in the pilots dispute 1989 in Oz.
I have made the right decision, I would like top join the union up here but they have done nothing to encourage me except plaster my name and a few other REALISTS about the place. As i said on anpther post - this childish stuff doesn't bother me but it might a number of guys coming up here soon. The Company will NOT STAND for intimidation this they have assured us so watch it chaps. I know many more than just australians coming this way so you better get used to it.
we can all be friends if we agree to disagree - thats all.
I have made the right decision, I would like top join the union up here but they have done nothing to encourage me except plaster my name and a few other REALISTS about the place. As i said on anpther post - this childish stuff doesn't bother me but it might a number of guys coming up here soon. The Company will NOT STAND for intimidation this they have assured us so watch it chaps. I know many more than just australians coming this way so you better get used to it.
we can all be friends if we agree to disagree - thats all.
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TSI, may I suggest that whether you perceive yourself to be in the right or a wronged party, it's extremely ill-advised to threaten your seniors. Some fellows have LONG memories.
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I'd be surprised if this TSI bloke is even a pilot, probably some management **** stirrer. Doesn't seem to care that everyone senior to him will be looking after his career and maybe some of them don't like him and his ilk.
Remember the 49ers were sacked "for no particular reason". They don't need one, what goes around comes around.
Remember the 49ers were sacked "for no particular reason". They don't need one, what goes around comes around.
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TSI stated this:
"I have made the right decision, I would like top join the union up here but they have done nothing to encourage me except plaster my name and a few other REALISTS about the place"
WRONG,
The Union has not “plastered” anything …yet. The Scablists have been produced by some vigilante members and reproduced by Ken Barley himself. The Union has officially asked their members to “Turn it off”…for now. The Union is trying to give peace a chance AGAIN, but the membership is running out of patience.
TSI quote:
“As i said on another post - this childish stuff doesn't bother me but it might a number of guys coming up here soon. The Company will NOT STAND for intimidation this they have assured us so watch it chaps”
It is true that the management have stated that they will not stand for any intimidation and they went so far has to introduce some “rules” in vol 1 regarding this matter. Here you have a system where a brand new S/O can walk up to the DFO’s office and “rat” on a Senior Captain for making him feel “uncomfortable” and “intimidated”. Who wants to fly with the Scabs now? Great work environment created by management, isn't it?
TSI is right to say that the actions taken against the Scabs have been “childish” so far. Midnight calls and “plastering” the blacklist are very childish actions compared to what’s coming if the Union asks the membership to “turn it on”. This could be a very lonnnng career indeed, you made your bed…
Hope you have a good cold one at BJ’s tonight.
"I have made the right decision, I would like top join the union up here but they have done nothing to encourage me except plaster my name and a few other REALISTS about the place"
WRONG,
The Union has not “plastered” anything …yet. The Scablists have been produced by some vigilante members and reproduced by Ken Barley himself. The Union has officially asked their members to “Turn it off”…for now. The Union is trying to give peace a chance AGAIN, but the membership is running out of patience.
TSI quote:
“As i said on another post - this childish stuff doesn't bother me but it might a number of guys coming up here soon. The Company will NOT STAND for intimidation this they have assured us so watch it chaps”
It is true that the management have stated that they will not stand for any intimidation and they went so far has to introduce some “rules” in vol 1 regarding this matter. Here you have a system where a brand new S/O can walk up to the DFO’s office and “rat” on a Senior Captain for making him feel “uncomfortable” and “intimidated”. Who wants to fly with the Scabs now? Great work environment created by management, isn't it?
TSI is right to say that the actions taken against the Scabs have been “childish” so far. Midnight calls and “plastering” the blacklist are very childish actions compared to what’s coming if the Union asks the membership to “turn it on”. This could be a very lonnnng career indeed, you made your bed…
Hope you have a good cold one at BJ’s tonight.
Hoffa,
Great, you will take a group of fellow pilots who, for their own reasons, made a desiction you don't like and make their life hell.
If you're REALLY lucky, maybe one of them, or perhaps a member of ther family will crack and top themselves. Or perhaps have a breakdown and end up in a padded room. Now wouldn't that cause some celebrations!!!
But tell me this... How exactley will that help your cause and get the 49ers there jobs back? You have all been totaly spineless in enacting this ban whilst still accepting Cathay pay and promotions yourselves, and now you going to be schoolyard bullies and intimidate those who called you on your hypocrasy.
The spectre of Pilots bleating about being treated as proffestionals, whilst acting like the basest thugs has been played out before, and last time the bullies lost, big time.
If you want to continue loosing support and strengthening the anti-union resolve of managment and workers alike, keep it up.
Great, you will take a group of fellow pilots who, for their own reasons, made a desiction you don't like and make their life hell.
If you're REALLY lucky, maybe one of them, or perhaps a member of ther family will crack and top themselves. Or perhaps have a breakdown and end up in a padded room. Now wouldn't that cause some celebrations!!!
But tell me this... How exactley will that help your cause and get the 49ers there jobs back? You have all been totaly spineless in enacting this ban whilst still accepting Cathay pay and promotions yourselves, and now you going to be schoolyard bullies and intimidate those who called you on your hypocrasy.
The spectre of Pilots bleating about being treated as proffestionals, whilst acting like the basest thugs has been played out before, and last time the bullies lost, big time.
If you want to continue loosing support and strengthening the anti-union resolve of managment and workers alike, keep it up.
Last edited by Wizofoz; 15th May 2002 at 05:49.
