Union Bust 3
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Union Bust 3
The H.R. Nicholls Society
The H.R. Nicholls Society is an interesting research subject as the tentacles appear to never end. I?m reminded of a quote, "we may be paranoid, but are we paranoid enough". I cannot begin to encapsulate the scope of the Nicholls Society?s apparent influence. Described as "ultra right wing", "right wing union-busters", "the New Right?s think-tank", and even "as an ultra-right secret organisation with Masonic overtones?Its stated aim was to dismantle the Industrial Relations Arbitration system as a means of crushing union power".
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing...es/s255582.htm
Clearly, I had stumbled across a nest of vipers and my education was now in high gear. I recommend you take the time to follow the threads and read up on this organisation. The Society have just had their annual conference in Melbourne where they awarded former Industrial Relations Minister, Peter Reith, for his contribution to their mutual cause ? you will remember him from the Wharfie?s Dispute above. To suggest that these folks are seriously committed union-busters is an understatement ? they are zealots.
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...cholls+society
During your reading you will happen across an article that is so relevant that I have included it in this post.
quote:THE IR AND LEGAL TEAM TO KILL THE UNION (Stephen Long, Australian Financial Review, 14th August 1998)
A young Melbourne lawyer dines out on the story of her tenure at the employment law practice of Freehill Hollingdale & Page. A senior partner quickly bailed up the new solicitor and asked, "Will you be attending tonight's meeting of the HR Nichols Society?"
"Erhum... no," the freshman replied, mumbling excuses but privately horrified at the thought of joining the right-wing anti-union lobby group against arbitration.
Few people were surprised to learn that Freehill Hollingdale & Page had devised Patrick Stevedores' strategy to bust the Maritime Union - although it shocked many, including Patrick's chairman, Mr Chris Corrigan, when the legal web unravelled so spectacularly in the courts.
Freehills is the big fish of Australia's employment law practices, dwarfing rivals with almost 60 lawyers and 14 partners nationwide. It boasts a client list that reads like a who's who of the nation's blue-chip companies - Telstra....
It is widely perceived as the HR Nichols Society of employment law firms, although that is a label its partners are at pains to deny.
"We aren't there to dictate ideology and approach" says the business manager of Freehills' national employee relations group, Mr Russell Allen.
Although its client base has a range of approaches to industrial relations, there are close synergies between Freehills and the tougher employers which have fought for managerial prerogative.
Freehills appears to be the firm of choice for employers which take a hard line. Telstra, for example, dumped Corrs Chambers Westgarth and hired Freehills when its present IR manager, Mr Rob Cartwright, took over and began pushing individual employment contracts and a tougher approach to unions.
Mr Tony Wood, a Freehills partner, is on full-time secondment to the telecommunications giant, replacing Corrs' partner and former Liberal IR minister Mr Ian Macphee.
Separate to this, a number of Freehills' alumni have become prominent in IR. The new head of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission, Mr Geoff Giudice [who was counsel for Telstra just prior to his appointment], is an ex-Freehills partner.
"Freehills are certainly the firm you go to when you don't want to compromise," says one Melbourne lawyer.
"Freehills don't mind being known as the headkickers, the lawyers who deliver for the big end of town" says another ex-Freehills solicitor.
But that reputation took a dent during this year's docks dispute. When Patrick Stevedores dumped its unionised workforce just before midnight on April 7 by terminating contracts with subsidiary companies employing the workers, its management appeared supremely confident that the strategy would survive any legal challenge.... Freehills was named a real loser in newspaper headlines, and suffered the ignominy of having Mr Corrigan question on national television the legal advice his company had received.
Freehills
Now I?m getting really interested! Who the hell are Freehills and why do keep bumping into them? HR Nicholls Society and Freehills ? apparently fitting like the proverbial iron hand in velvet glove. It seems that almost every big ?union-bust? I read about has Freehills mixed up in it. The Waterfront dispute, Telstra, Rio Tinto mining, Coca-Cola?hang on.
So I check out their website and it turns out they are just the sort of Legal Firm that Marty was talking about. Big write-up on their IR capability, all over Australia and Asia, "strategic planning in workplace reform" and "dispute management", lots of experience and a few ex-union officers ? just like Marty said.
http://www.freehills.com.au
From the overhead menu I select ?Expertise?, then ?Employee Relations?, then ?Industrial Relations?, to find myself able to go over to the right hand side menu and select ?Brochure Download?. I also download "Overview", "Credentials", and "Partner Profiles". I print it all out and now I?m reading about some of these guys bragging about the Pilots Dispute in ?89 ? they were on the side of the bad guys. Particularly some guy called ?John Cooper? (?Partner Profiles? then ?John Cooper?) who appears to have been a significant player against the pilots in ?89.
So now I have found the Law Firm that helped plan and execute the bust of the Australian Federation of Airline Pilots ? many of whom have since joined us in our unhappy Airline.
http://www.freehills.com.au/CA256AD9...REFUNID=~&mb=~
I have to admit that I was starting to question the coincidence when I went back up to the top right and clicked on ?Credentials?. Under the heading "Workplace Reform and strategic employee relations advice" I read through the list of boasted clients. From the list I recognised some really big union-bust attempts. Rio Tinto and Alcoa mining I remember were very nasty. Patricks Stevedores we have already looked at. I had heard Coca-Cola is renowned for dismal industrial relations ? aren?t our Company owners are mixed up with them? Oh, Pacific Century Cyberworks, that?s PCCW isn?t it, the phone people from Hong Kong ? does that mean that Freehills do busts in Hong Kong as well? Didn?t PCCW just chuck over 800 people out on the street? Isn?t that a former Swire Prince running that show - getting too close for comfort now?
And then I saw it, in that dreadful list was Cathay Pacific! I almost can?t believe it, but then I realise deep down I knew it all along ? I just didn?t want to face it.
http://www.freehills.com.au/CA256AD9...REFUNID=~&mb=~
Also in the "aviation players" category is Qantas. I remember that the ?kytherian? (Kythera is the ancient part of Cyprus peopled by Greece) came to us from Qantas where he was the Industrial Relations Manager. Eddington, Turnbull and Edward Scott are either Australian or have served down there for many years ? where else would they go for a consultant with experience?
I can?t get out of my head a paragraph I read about rumours of an Australian union-buster in the DDFO?s latest letter ? partly the reason I was looking there. He said something about it being "pure propaganda" and then some throwaway line about some inconsequential meeting with "a Professor of Industrial Relations from a University IN Western Australia". This paragraph seemed out of place at first and far too forced off hand for me ? I smelt a rodent. I entered the ?red herring? into my search engine and off I went.
Turns out the head of the Freehills ?Industrial Relations? practice is based in Perth, Western Australia. By happy coincidence, the University OF Western Australia has a Law School award sponsored by Freehills. A book by Freehills is published by the UWA press. All very normal stuff and what you would expect from one of the largest law firms in Australia and a large city university. Indeed, many of Freehills lawyers are graduates of UWA and some of them currently lecture at UWA and are even Board Members there ? I?m sure it?s nothing more sinister than that.
(Actually didn?t the DDFO work some junior years down in Australia ? where our CEO became his mentor? Pretty chummy all round by the sounds of things ? regular old boys network.)
For those of you patient enough to still be reading the end of this post I thank you. I would like to know more about this subject and I should think we all would. I have included some links below to help shortcut the research path and I hope they are of assistance. Should you find anything of similar interest in your surfing please take the trouble to share it with us.
My guess is that the Freehills site will soon lose the reference to our Airline and it will only live on in our memories ? both organic and computer ? so go visit the site sooner rather than later. Good luck.
The Condor
The H.R. Nicholls Society is an interesting research subject as the tentacles appear to never end. I?m reminded of a quote, "we may be paranoid, but are we paranoid enough". I cannot begin to encapsulate the scope of the Nicholls Society?s apparent influence. Described as "ultra right wing", "right wing union-busters", "the New Right?s think-tank", and even "as an ultra-right secret organisation with Masonic overtones?Its stated aim was to dismantle the Industrial Relations Arbitration system as a means of crushing union power".
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing...es/s255582.htm
Clearly, I had stumbled across a nest of vipers and my education was now in high gear. I recommend you take the time to follow the threads and read up on this organisation. The Society have just had their annual conference in Melbourne where they awarded former Industrial Relations Minister, Peter Reith, for his contribution to their mutual cause ? you will remember him from the Wharfie?s Dispute above. To suggest that these folks are seriously committed union-busters is an understatement ? they are zealots.
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...cholls+society
During your reading you will happen across an article that is so relevant that I have included it in this post.
quote:THE IR AND LEGAL TEAM TO KILL THE UNION (Stephen Long, Australian Financial Review, 14th August 1998)
A young Melbourne lawyer dines out on the story of her tenure at the employment law practice of Freehill Hollingdale & Page. A senior partner quickly bailed up the new solicitor and asked, "Will you be attending tonight's meeting of the HR Nichols Society?"
"Erhum... no," the freshman replied, mumbling excuses but privately horrified at the thought of joining the right-wing anti-union lobby group against arbitration.
Few people were surprised to learn that Freehill Hollingdale & Page had devised Patrick Stevedores' strategy to bust the Maritime Union - although it shocked many, including Patrick's chairman, Mr Chris Corrigan, when the legal web unravelled so spectacularly in the courts.
Freehills is the big fish of Australia's employment law practices, dwarfing rivals with almost 60 lawyers and 14 partners nationwide. It boasts a client list that reads like a who's who of the nation's blue-chip companies - Telstra....
It is widely perceived as the HR Nichols Society of employment law firms, although that is a label its partners are at pains to deny.
"We aren't there to dictate ideology and approach" says the business manager of Freehills' national employee relations group, Mr Russell Allen.
Although its client base has a range of approaches to industrial relations, there are close synergies between Freehills and the tougher employers which have fought for managerial prerogative.
Freehills appears to be the firm of choice for employers which take a hard line. Telstra, for example, dumped Corrs Chambers Westgarth and hired Freehills when its present IR manager, Mr Rob Cartwright, took over and began pushing individual employment contracts and a tougher approach to unions.
Mr Tony Wood, a Freehills partner, is on full-time secondment to the telecommunications giant, replacing Corrs' partner and former Liberal IR minister Mr Ian Macphee.
Separate to this, a number of Freehills' alumni have become prominent in IR. The new head of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission, Mr Geoff Giudice [who was counsel for Telstra just prior to his appointment], is an ex-Freehills partner.
"Freehills are certainly the firm you go to when you don't want to compromise," says one Melbourne lawyer.
"Freehills don't mind being known as the headkickers, the lawyers who deliver for the big end of town" says another ex-Freehills solicitor.
But that reputation took a dent during this year's docks dispute. When Patrick Stevedores dumped its unionised workforce just before midnight on April 7 by terminating contracts with subsidiary companies employing the workers, its management appeared supremely confident that the strategy would survive any legal challenge.... Freehills was named a real loser in newspaper headlines, and suffered the ignominy of having Mr Corrigan question on national television the legal advice his company had received.
Freehills
Now I?m getting really interested! Who the hell are Freehills and why do keep bumping into them? HR Nicholls Society and Freehills ? apparently fitting like the proverbial iron hand in velvet glove. It seems that almost every big ?union-bust? I read about has Freehills mixed up in it. The Waterfront dispute, Telstra, Rio Tinto mining, Coca-Cola?hang on.
So I check out their website and it turns out they are just the sort of Legal Firm that Marty was talking about. Big write-up on their IR capability, all over Australia and Asia, "strategic planning in workplace reform" and "dispute management", lots of experience and a few ex-union officers ? just like Marty said.
http://www.freehills.com.au
From the overhead menu I select ?Expertise?, then ?Employee Relations?, then ?Industrial Relations?, to find myself able to go over to the right hand side menu and select ?Brochure Download?. I also download "Overview", "Credentials", and "Partner Profiles". I print it all out and now I?m reading about some of these guys bragging about the Pilots Dispute in ?89 ? they were on the side of the bad guys. Particularly some guy called ?John Cooper? (?Partner Profiles? then ?John Cooper?) who appears to have been a significant player against the pilots in ?89.
So now I have found the Law Firm that helped plan and execute the bust of the Australian Federation of Airline Pilots ? many of whom have since joined us in our unhappy Airline.
http://www.freehills.com.au/CA256AD9...REFUNID=~&mb=~
I have to admit that I was starting to question the coincidence when I went back up to the top right and clicked on ?Credentials?. Under the heading "Workplace Reform and strategic employee relations advice" I read through the list of boasted clients. From the list I recognised some really big union-bust attempts. Rio Tinto and Alcoa mining I remember were very nasty. Patricks Stevedores we have already looked at. I had heard Coca-Cola is renowned for dismal industrial relations ? aren?t our Company owners are mixed up with them? Oh, Pacific Century Cyberworks, that?s PCCW isn?t it, the phone people from Hong Kong ? does that mean that Freehills do busts in Hong Kong as well? Didn?t PCCW just chuck over 800 people out on the street? Isn?t that a former Swire Prince running that show - getting too close for comfort now?
And then I saw it, in that dreadful list was Cathay Pacific! I almost can?t believe it, but then I realise deep down I knew it all along ? I just didn?t want to face it.
http://www.freehills.com.au/CA256AD9...REFUNID=~&mb=~
Also in the "aviation players" category is Qantas. I remember that the ?kytherian? (Kythera is the ancient part of Cyprus peopled by Greece) came to us from Qantas where he was the Industrial Relations Manager. Eddington, Turnbull and Edward Scott are either Australian or have served down there for many years ? where else would they go for a consultant with experience?
I can?t get out of my head a paragraph I read about rumours of an Australian union-buster in the DDFO?s latest letter ? partly the reason I was looking there. He said something about it being "pure propaganda" and then some throwaway line about some inconsequential meeting with "a Professor of Industrial Relations from a University IN Western Australia". This paragraph seemed out of place at first and far too forced off hand for me ? I smelt a rodent. I entered the ?red herring? into my search engine and off I went.
Turns out the head of the Freehills ?Industrial Relations? practice is based in Perth, Western Australia. By happy coincidence, the University OF Western Australia has a Law School award sponsored by Freehills. A book by Freehills is published by the UWA press. All very normal stuff and what you would expect from one of the largest law firms in Australia and a large city university. Indeed, many of Freehills lawyers are graduates of UWA and some of them currently lecture at UWA and are even Board Members there ? I?m sure it?s nothing more sinister than that.
(Actually didn?t the DDFO work some junior years down in Australia ? where our CEO became his mentor? Pretty chummy all round by the sounds of things ? regular old boys network.)
For those of you patient enough to still be reading the end of this post I thank you. I would like to know more about this subject and I should think we all would. I have included some links below to help shortcut the research path and I hope they are of assistance. Should you find anything of similar interest in your surfing please take the trouble to share it with us.
My guess is that the Freehills site will soon lose the reference to our Airline and it will only live on in our memories ? both organic and computer ? so go visit the site sooner rather than later. Good luck.
The Condor
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This is Incredible, all the evidence is right here...IT IS A UNION BUST.
I recommend to click on those links ASAP, before management will try to cover it up, (and you know they will)
FANTASTIC work Condor!
I recommend to click on those links ASAP, before management will try to cover it up, (and you know they will)
FANTASTIC work Condor!
Union Bust 1,2 and 3 is a well crafted treatise on the recent glory days of Antipodean industrial relations. The research is vigorous, the arguments well made.The conclusions are, however, not compelling.
The fact that there has been no commentary on this theory says a lot in itself about the current state of play in CX.
I do not buy into the conspiracy theory per se, simply because I do not think the company capable of such depth of strategy and planning.
The current standoff will not end simply because the management does not wish it to end. Loss of face is not an option, for the round-eyes more so than for the orientals.
If one looks at the bigger picture, what we have today is the end result of some band aid measures put in place nearly 10 years ago. Management is that in name only. They are simply the owner’s representatives and as such find it impossible to retract bad decisions.
They will continue to intimidate the pilots simply because they can. It is the preferred option to telling the owner that a bad decision was made in the first place.
The feedback they are getting from the management pilots tells them they will win if they persevere with the current position.
Nobody is adding up the extra ten minutes per sector and the collective view is that we are bunch of spoilt nimrods who can easily be replaced.
Management will settle for nothing less than total acquiescence from the AOA. The new DFO is more polished than the old but I can assure you he is more determined than any of his predecessors to keep the cockpit door locked. No longer seen but not heard, the new policy will be out of sight and out of mind, even if costs 5 seats per sector from here to eternity.
Sadly, the only thing that will clear the roadblock is a big oil stain on the side of a mountain. Even then, however, we will be shown to be more like SQ than the CX of old.
The intent of this response is not to argue that paranoia is wrong but that it will not move the process forward. The AOA will never again have a seat at the big table. CX is not a career airline for pilots.Lets grow up and stop pretending it will ever be again. The residual goodwill is rapidly disappearing and management puts no value on its return.
The irony in the Patricks vs WWF battle is that Chris Corrigan got most of what he wanted even though he lost the moral case in the courts. The global commercial pressures finally caught up with the WWF. Following the re-instatements, new contracts were negotiated rewarding productivity. Unit costs were lowered drastically and Patricks returned to profitability in very short order.
The investment Corrigan made ultimately paid a handsome dividend. The political storm blew over, he laid low for a while as Patricks prospered; then to re-emerge into the spotlight as the main player in rail privatization in NSW and now Virgin Blue. The ultimate target must be the Ansett terminal assets. I couldn’t imagine the arrival of Chris Corrigan filled the Virgin pilots with glee, as a number of them in senior slots went through the trauma of 1989. Unlike Richard Branson, Corrigan is not known to smile before he eats you.
As much as I like a good conspiracy theory , I am not convinced the conclusions that flow towards the end of Part 3 stand up to rigorous scrutiny.
There is a lot of sensational journalism in Australia. The old skill of stringing one or two facts to a bow and pretending it’s a harp. It is just plain nonsense to ascribe mystical and magical powers to the HR Nicholls Society. It is not a coven of warlocks and witches plotting the overthrow of the working man. Rather, it is more of a gathering of legal windbags with political ambitions ( all be they right-wing).
The connection from secret society to CX union buster requires a huge leap of faith, the kind of faith that will have you believe that just because you are paranoid you have more than your fair share of enemies.
It is certainly a matter of public record that Freehills handled the Patricks strike against the WWF. As to how much of their involvement was paper delivery and how much was actual strategy is a matter of conjecture. Chris Corrigan giving them a public spray after his rebuttal, is a not enough to convince me.
I got very lost when Condor moved straight from Freehill’s role in the WWF joust to name them as the secret weapon employed to bust the AOA.
Most major law firms in Australia (not that many left these days) have a similar list of clients to Freehills. All use the names of blue-chip companies in their customer list to show pedigree.
Freehills is an Australian law firm that practices Australian law within the Australian jurisdiction. Whilst they have an office in HK it is essentially to service Australia or Australian interests of HK companies.
The connection with CocaCola is not relevant. Swire Bottlers has no linkage with Australia. Coca Cola in Australia is linked to Amatil.
Cathay Pacific built a large data center in Sydney some years back. That investment required a lot of legal support.
With basings must have come the need for the company to broaden IR legal support in all countries used for bases. Prudent and certainly no proof of planning a bust so many years later.
Many people in the larger Swire Group of companies have spent time in Australia. Swire has a broad range of business interests in Australia, PNG and the Pacific. I cannot make the direct connection in my own mind. Surely the Thatcher years in the UK would have provided a more potent list of UK-based IR legal firepower if that was the intent.
With respect, the use of legal advice does not constitute a conspiracy, as much as we may want to see one.
Keep that door locked!
The fact that there has been no commentary on this theory says a lot in itself about the current state of play in CX.
I do not buy into the conspiracy theory per se, simply because I do not think the company capable of such depth of strategy and planning.
The current standoff will not end simply because the management does not wish it to end. Loss of face is not an option, for the round-eyes more so than for the orientals.
If one looks at the bigger picture, what we have today is the end result of some band aid measures put in place nearly 10 years ago. Management is that in name only. They are simply the owner’s representatives and as such find it impossible to retract bad decisions.
They will continue to intimidate the pilots simply because they can. It is the preferred option to telling the owner that a bad decision was made in the first place.
The feedback they are getting from the management pilots tells them they will win if they persevere with the current position.
Nobody is adding up the extra ten minutes per sector and the collective view is that we are bunch of spoilt nimrods who can easily be replaced.
Management will settle for nothing less than total acquiescence from the AOA. The new DFO is more polished than the old but I can assure you he is more determined than any of his predecessors to keep the cockpit door locked. No longer seen but not heard, the new policy will be out of sight and out of mind, even if costs 5 seats per sector from here to eternity.
Sadly, the only thing that will clear the roadblock is a big oil stain on the side of a mountain. Even then, however, we will be shown to be more like SQ than the CX of old.
The intent of this response is not to argue that paranoia is wrong but that it will not move the process forward. The AOA will never again have a seat at the big table. CX is not a career airline for pilots.Lets grow up and stop pretending it will ever be again. The residual goodwill is rapidly disappearing and management puts no value on its return.
The irony in the Patricks vs WWF battle is that Chris Corrigan got most of what he wanted even though he lost the moral case in the courts. The global commercial pressures finally caught up with the WWF. Following the re-instatements, new contracts were negotiated rewarding productivity. Unit costs were lowered drastically and Patricks returned to profitability in very short order.
The investment Corrigan made ultimately paid a handsome dividend. The political storm blew over, he laid low for a while as Patricks prospered; then to re-emerge into the spotlight as the main player in rail privatization in NSW and now Virgin Blue. The ultimate target must be the Ansett terminal assets. I couldn’t imagine the arrival of Chris Corrigan filled the Virgin pilots with glee, as a number of them in senior slots went through the trauma of 1989. Unlike Richard Branson, Corrigan is not known to smile before he eats you.
As much as I like a good conspiracy theory , I am not convinced the conclusions that flow towards the end of Part 3 stand up to rigorous scrutiny.
There is a lot of sensational journalism in Australia. The old skill of stringing one or two facts to a bow and pretending it’s a harp. It is just plain nonsense to ascribe mystical and magical powers to the HR Nicholls Society. It is not a coven of warlocks and witches plotting the overthrow of the working man. Rather, it is more of a gathering of legal windbags with political ambitions ( all be they right-wing).
The connection from secret society to CX union buster requires a huge leap of faith, the kind of faith that will have you believe that just because you are paranoid you have more than your fair share of enemies.
It is certainly a matter of public record that Freehills handled the Patricks strike against the WWF. As to how much of their involvement was paper delivery and how much was actual strategy is a matter of conjecture. Chris Corrigan giving them a public spray after his rebuttal, is a not enough to convince me.
I got very lost when Condor moved straight from Freehill’s role in the WWF joust to name them as the secret weapon employed to bust the AOA.
Most major law firms in Australia (not that many left these days) have a similar list of clients to Freehills. All use the names of blue-chip companies in their customer list to show pedigree.
Freehills is an Australian law firm that practices Australian law within the Australian jurisdiction. Whilst they have an office in HK it is essentially to service Australia or Australian interests of HK companies.
The connection with CocaCola is not relevant. Swire Bottlers has no linkage with Australia. Coca Cola in Australia is linked to Amatil.
Cathay Pacific built a large data center in Sydney some years back. That investment required a lot of legal support.
With basings must have come the need for the company to broaden IR legal support in all countries used for bases. Prudent and certainly no proof of planning a bust so many years later.
Many people in the larger Swire Group of companies have spent time in Australia. Swire has a broad range of business interests in Australia, PNG and the Pacific. I cannot make the direct connection in my own mind. Surely the Thatcher years in the UK would have provided a more potent list of UK-based IR legal firepower if that was the intent.
With respect, the use of legal advice does not constitute a conspiracy, as much as we may want to see one.
Keep that door locked!
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VR, me thinks you aren't a member. If you were you might have graced us with your thoughts many weeks ago when this first turned up elsewhere.
The non AOA members at CX are having a tough time buying into the fact that their precious management is trying to steal from them. Don't underestimate these guys. Your comment about their capabilities is a bit naive. The management at CX are very capable, of many things, including hiring the likes of Freehills to help them with their dirty work.
The non AOA members at CX are having a tough time buying into the fact that their precious management is trying to steal from them. Don't underestimate these guys. Your comment about their capabilities is a bit naive. The management at CX are very capable, of many things, including hiring the likes of Freehills to help them with their dirty work.
6'Under
I can assure you I have been a member longer than you have.My 5pct is bigger than most if not all.
The conspiracy theory has been around for a number of months. The re4ason I chose to keep my powder dry is that I wanted to check with a few mates who are in the ' world's second oldest profession'. Sure it was on 'C' well before 'P' but I choose not to post on 'C' cos it leaks like a sieve.
I take the naive label with good grace although ill deserved.Hardened and wrinkled is more appropriate.
As I said keep that door locked because that is the new definition of CRM.
Saty well...and on guard.
I can assure you I have been a member longer than you have.My 5pct is bigger than most if not all.
The conspiracy theory has been around for a number of months. The re4ason I chose to keep my powder dry is that I wanted to check with a few mates who are in the ' world's second oldest profession'. Sure it was on 'C' well before 'P' but I choose not to post on 'C' cos it leaks like a sieve.
I take the naive label with good grace although ill deserved.Hardened and wrinkled is more appropriate.
As I said keep that door locked because that is the new definition of CRM.
Saty well...and on guard.
