JFK 777 Base on new FTLS
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Oval,
Your response shows a fair bit of naïveté. Anything that degrades any CX pilots' contract hurts the group as a whole. It puts downward pressure on all of us, much like our icadets do now and B scale did back in the 90s. Also, anything that makes us disparate is bad for the unity of our pilot group, AOA Canada is a prime example of this as are bases in general. The more we have in common contractually, the better off we are as a group. It gives the company less opportunity to divide and conquer and makes our interests more similar, allowing a more concentrated and focused effort by the AOA.
Surely these concepts are not lost on someone as smart as you. I learned them as a child from my father, but so many in CX just cannot see the big picture. Perhaps they are too busy trying to get the mouth music right.
Your response shows a fair bit of naïveté. Anything that degrades any CX pilots' contract hurts the group as a whole. It puts downward pressure on all of us, much like our icadets do now and B scale did back in the 90s. Also, anything that makes us disparate is bad for the unity of our pilot group, AOA Canada is a prime example of this as are bases in general. The more we have in common contractually, the better off we are as a group. It gives the company less opportunity to divide and conquer and makes our interests more similar, allowing a more concentrated and focused effort by the AOA.
Surely these concepts are not lost on someone as smart as you. I learned them as a child from my father, but so many in CX just cannot see the big picture. Perhaps they are too busy trying to get the mouth music right.
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cxorcist - You nailed it!
Oh not again, even a mouse in a laboratory knows when to stop when they have been shocked too many times. Shows the pilots aren't too bright.
The boys comparison of basings being good for pilots is like advocating pancreatic cancer as a form of weight loss.
Oh not again, even a mouse in a laboratory knows when to stop when they have been shocked too many times. Shows the pilots aren't too bright.
The boys comparison of basings being good for pilots is like advocating pancreatic cancer as a form of weight loss.
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Oval:
Your posts have an eerie echo of 'Well, the company has already set the pay and conditions for these new 'B' scales, crew want to join on them and it's not affecting us 'A' scalers, so what's the problem?' That is the exact reasoning that allowed 'B' scales. Every reduction in conditions or FTLs start off as a only affecting a small minority and are then used as a lever in the next major negotiations. If this is accepted EVERYBODY will be on the same conditions as the JFK base within 3 years...
Madness is definedas carrying out the same operation repeatedly with the same initial parameters and expecting a different result...
Your posts have an eerie echo of 'Well, the company has already set the pay and conditions for these new 'B' scales, crew want to join on them and it's not affecting us 'A' scalers, so what's the problem?' That is the exact reasoning that allowed 'B' scales. Every reduction in conditions or FTLs start off as a only affecting a small minority and are then used as a lever in the next major negotiations. If this is accepted EVERYBODY will be on the same conditions as the JFK base within 3 years...
Madness is definedas carrying out the same operation repeatedly with the same initial parameters and expecting a different result...
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cxorcist,
I am not naive, I am realistic. I agree that anything which differentiates one pilot's contract from that of another is not good for unity. However, it has been shown, both by OUR actions and those of the company since the early 1990s that we cannot stick together. Bases were a bright move by the company because the pilots only saw what it did for the pilots; the company saw it as a way to divide and conquer.
The company is not a stupid as some of us may think. They cleverly disguise something so we think we've "won" by getting it. In reality, their "loss" is not a loss at all.
If you think that there is some way to salvage and combine our fragmented pilot group I say that you are the one who is naive. Unfortunately (I wish it were not this way) it is every pilot for himself these days. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming.
tsimbeit, I don't understand your metaphor. Are you saying that raising a family in clean air, with clean water to drink and in which to swim, natural food to eat, open spaces to explore (I could go on) is bad? I say that anyone who forces his family members (especially children) to live in the sh&t hole which is Hong Kong if he could otherwise be on a base is committing abuse! Bases ARE good for pilots AND their families.
Kitsune, what is the alternative? Do you really think the company would open JFK as a 777 base WITHOUT the concession of a rolling two-month EFT limit? You might think the company would be desperate to get people out of Hong Kong in order to save housing and education allowance. Well, I think they'd rather spend some extra money to KEEP people in Hong Kong so that they are under control and dependent on the company, therefore being unwilling to take any sort of unified action in order to maintain or secure better working conditions. It is often hard to differentiate between decisions CX makes based on money and those based on control.
We will all be on the conditions the company wants in three years whether we like it or not. We are irreparably fractured as a pilot group.
Think back to the 49ers, when we were supposedly unified. Did we stick together then and insist that the 49ers be reinstated immediately? Do you think there is ANY hope of us sticking together now that we have AOA Canada, AOA Australia and so many different CoS that we can't even count them anymore?
Madness is thinking that when faced with our next ultimatum we will somehow come together and force a result in our best interest rather than that of the company.
I am not naive, I am realistic. I agree that anything which differentiates one pilot's contract from that of another is not good for unity. However, it has been shown, both by OUR actions and those of the company since the early 1990s that we cannot stick together. Bases were a bright move by the company because the pilots only saw what it did for the pilots; the company saw it as a way to divide and conquer.
The company is not a stupid as some of us may think. They cleverly disguise something so we think we've "won" by getting it. In reality, their "loss" is not a loss at all.
If you think that there is some way to salvage and combine our fragmented pilot group I say that you are the one who is naive. Unfortunately (I wish it were not this way) it is every pilot for himself these days. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming.
tsimbeit, I don't understand your metaphor. Are you saying that raising a family in clean air, with clean water to drink and in which to swim, natural food to eat, open spaces to explore (I could go on) is bad? I say that anyone who forces his family members (especially children) to live in the sh&t hole which is Hong Kong if he could otherwise be on a base is committing abuse! Bases ARE good for pilots AND their families.
Kitsune, what is the alternative? Do you really think the company would open JFK as a 777 base WITHOUT the concession of a rolling two-month EFT limit? You might think the company would be desperate to get people out of Hong Kong in order to save housing and education allowance. Well, I think they'd rather spend some extra money to KEEP people in Hong Kong so that they are under control and dependent on the company, therefore being unwilling to take any sort of unified action in order to maintain or secure better working conditions. It is often hard to differentiate between decisions CX makes based on money and those based on control.
We will all be on the conditions the company wants in three years whether we like it or not. We are irreparably fractured as a pilot group.
Think back to the 49ers, when we were supposedly unified. Did we stick together then and insist that the 49ers be reinstated immediately? Do you think there is ANY hope of us sticking together now that we have AOA Canada, AOA Australia and so many different CoS that we can't even count them anymore?
Madness is thinking that when faced with our next ultimatum we will somehow come together and force a result in our best interest rather than that of the company.
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We have met the enemy — and he is us.
A great group of professional pilots are not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.
The problems that exist today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them. Now while it is undoubtedly true that we cannot change the past, we definitely can learn from it. Indeed, we fail to do so at our peril
A good way to describe our boys myopia is to compare them to horses with blinders on. Now, would anyone dare to wager a bet on a horse whose eyesight is blinded from seeing the track? Of course not.
When both reason, reality fail to impact on pilots, perhaps all that remains is ridicule.
A great group of professional pilots are not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.
The problems that exist today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them. Now while it is undoubtedly true that we cannot change the past, we definitely can learn from it. Indeed, we fail to do so at our peril
A good way to describe our boys myopia is to compare them to horses with blinders on. Now, would anyone dare to wager a bet on a horse whose eyesight is blinded from seeing the track? Of course not.
When both reason, reality fail to impact on pilots, perhaps all that remains is ridicule.
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Oval,
Basically what I am reading in your post is that you are a defeatist and a quitter, but justify it with your "realism" with respect to the past and present at CX. Is that about right? Every man for himself... Is that how we win? Or is that how we got into this mess in the first place?
Please reread my post #62. I think that puts me firmly in the realist category as it pertains to our contracts and the AOA. I'm not saying it is an easy fight, but no fight worth winning ever is. Agree?
Basically what I am reading in your post is that you are a defeatist and a quitter, but justify it with your "realism" with respect to the past and present at CX. Is that about right? Every man for himself... Is that how we win? Or is that how we got into this mess in the first place?
Please reread my post #62. I think that puts me firmly in the realist category as it pertains to our contracts and the AOA. I'm not saying it is an easy fight, but no fight worth winning ever is. Agree?
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cxorcist, I'll reproduce part of your post #62 here so we can determine who is a realist and who is a defeatist:
cxorcist, I don't see any difference between my position and yours. "...not sure there is much (we) could do about it..." The reality is that there is NOT much we could do about it because it's been proven and continues to be proven that we fail to stand together. Lots thought Dennis D. could lead the AOA members to a position of strength. I've seen nothing of the sort.
We really haven't been defeated because there has never been a battle, has there?
Seeing as how we are all on individual contracts though, I'm not sure there is much either of us could do about it. If someone is willing to agree to that as a precondition for the base, would we have recourse? On the basis of seniority and our existing contract, I hope the AOA could stop it but that did not happen when freighter commands on bases were first offered.
We really haven't been defeated because there has never been a battle, has there?
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It's getting better. The newest idea from our GMA is a 3 month rolling average of 252 hours before EFP for all of us. What fun it will be to negotiate the new RP's when the new FTL's come out.
Last edited by GTC58; 11th Sep 2012 at 21:25.
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Oval,
Unless I'm reading into it, the difference between me and you is that I back a strong AOA unified through its members. I think this is an achievable goal that has and will produce tangible results. The impression you leave me with is a concession to what amounts to a contract job where we get only what market forces dictate and not one bit more. I'm betting you are not an AOA member and have an elaborate explanation for that. You say we "cannot stick together." I say we can and will. This management has pushed far enough, and now they are looking to push further. IMO, they will meet very firm resistance.
GTC,
I would only sign off on a three month rolling average if the company is willing to link our payscales to the rate of inflation, permanently. Try that on next time you talk to the GMA.
Unless I'm reading into it, the difference between me and you is that I back a strong AOA unified through its members. I think this is an achievable goal that has and will produce tangible results. The impression you leave me with is a concession to what amounts to a contract job where we get only what market forces dictate and not one bit more. I'm betting you are not an AOA member and have an elaborate explanation for that. You say we "cannot stick together." I say we can and will. This management has pushed far enough, and now they are looking to push further. IMO, they will meet very firm resistance.
GTC,
I would only sign off on a three month rolling average if the company is willing to link our payscales to the rate of inflation, permanently. Try that on next time you talk to the GMA.
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cxorcist,
I back a strong AOA unified through its members. By stating that you think it's an achievable goal you imply that the AOA is presently NOT unified through its members. I agree. However, you are a dreamer and I am a realist. I have seen the AOA's unity (what little there was) continually erode with the advent of bases, on-shoring and on-shored sub-unions (true, AOA Canada is no longer a sub-union.)
I wholeheartedly believe that this is a contract job and we get what we get ONLY because market forces dictate it. Sure, the forces are not always easy to see in action because the opposing forces usually do not act against one another on a timely basis. This is why we often think the company doesn't understand what it's doing. However, Swire has been around for over 150 years. I don't think they've survived unhappy employees for that long unless they were playing the long chess game.
You won your bet. I am not an AOA member and I'm not going to explain or get into a debate why. However, if the AOA would ask its members to withhold their services I would honor a picket line. I am NOT a scab and never will be (unlike some AOA members.)
If you say we can and will stick together you are once again dreaming.
There have been nothing but broken promises by management and hollow threats by the AOA. I see no reason that will ever change.
I back a strong AOA unified through its members. By stating that you think it's an achievable goal you imply that the AOA is presently NOT unified through its members. I agree. However, you are a dreamer and I am a realist. I have seen the AOA's unity (what little there was) continually erode with the advent of bases, on-shoring and on-shored sub-unions (true, AOA Canada is no longer a sub-union.)
I wholeheartedly believe that this is a contract job and we get what we get ONLY because market forces dictate it. Sure, the forces are not always easy to see in action because the opposing forces usually do not act against one another on a timely basis. This is why we often think the company doesn't understand what it's doing. However, Swire has been around for over 150 years. I don't think they've survived unhappy employees for that long unless they were playing the long chess game.
You won your bet. I am not an AOA member and I'm not going to explain or get into a debate why. However, if the AOA would ask its members to withhold their services I would honor a picket line. I am NOT a scab and never will be (unlike some AOA members.)
If you say we can and will stick together you are once again dreaming.
There have been nothing but broken promises by management and hollow threats by the AOA. I see no reason that will ever change.
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UNITY
Talk to any freighter pilot who did not sign the Freighter PX letter. (most did not, and I'm yet to speak with anyone who did)
All that I have spoken with are absolutely adamant that their roster has IMPROVED with no freighter PXing. This is despite all of the doom & gloom from management, and the threats that it will get worse, and freighter bases will have to close etc etc etc.
Simple message - stick together & don't sign anything.
All that I have spoken with are absolutely adamant that their roster has IMPROVED with no freighter PXing. This is despite all of the doom & gloom from management, and the threats that it will get worse, and freighter bases will have to close etc etc etc.
Simple message - stick together & don't sign anything.
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Anyone wiling to sign off on "rolling" three month totals is very naive indeed, and really hasn't thought of the repercussions.
It seems that very few CX pilots have a line in the sand when it comes to the big ticket items. EFP thresholds is one of these. Just ask the boys at EK...
You allow the company more then 84 hours in ANY one month without consequence (EFP OT) and watch out..
This is not something to be negotiated on at ANY cost. Whats left of our lifestyle is being dwindled away day after day and many so called professionals on here willing to hand it to the company..
Unfortunately, these people also have a voice and therefore happy to vote s*** like this in as long as it suits their agenda to the complete detriment to the pilot body as a whole
I've never worked WITH a more spineless bunch.....
It seems that very few CX pilots have a line in the sand when it comes to the big ticket items. EFP thresholds is one of these. Just ask the boys at EK...
You allow the company more then 84 hours in ANY one month without consequence (EFP OT) and watch out..
This is not something to be negotiated on at ANY cost. Whats left of our lifestyle is being dwindled away day after day and many so called professionals on here willing to hand it to the company..
Unfortunately, these people also have a voice and therefore happy to vote s*** like this in as long as it suits their agenda to the complete detriment to the pilot body as a whole
I've never worked WITH a more spineless bunch.....
Last edited by Barronflyer; 12th Sep 2012 at 02:15.
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Barronflyer
On a rumour network you have read about the GMA's alledged latest brainwave. (a potential follow-up hit to the financially costly Freighter PX, the total 
up PAR closure).
Without any substantive evidence you have leapt to the view that your fellow pilots are going to sign up to this rumour and have immediately concluded they are spineless. Take a moment to consider how you got the RP's that provide these benefits and protections.
I suggest you step outside and give your head a wobble.
up PAR closure). Without any substantive evidence you have leapt to the view that your fellow pilots are going to sign up to this rumour and have immediately concluded they are spineless. Take a moment to consider how you got the RP's that provide these benefits and protections.
I suggest you step outside and give your head a wobble.
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Very good response Liam
I expected nothing else
My "assumption" is based purely on our track record when it comes to negotiating ANYTHING with this company
Your arrogant attitude suggests you believe that 500 posts on Pprune makes you an expert
Pull your head in
I expected nothing else
My "assumption" is based purely on our track record when it comes to negotiating ANYTHING with this company
Your arrogant attitude suggests you believe that 500 posts on Pprune makes you an expert
Pull your head in
Last edited by Barronflyer; 12th Sep 2012 at 04:55.
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Barronflyer
I see the head wobble didn't work.
Sit down with a grown-up and get him/her to explain how your RP's came about. You will learn they came about, not because the company had a desire to pay you HDP and EFP, but because the company did not like the alternative.
Compare your RPs to your Housing Policy and Education Policy and Basings Policy and you will see your RPs are the only document the company cannot amend at their whim. Ask a grown-up why your RPs are different.
Sit down with a grown-up and get him/her to explain how your RP's came about. You will learn they came about, not because the company had a desire to pay you HDP and EFP, but because the company did not like the alternative.
Compare your RPs to your Housing Policy and Education Policy and Basings Policy and you will see your RPs are the only document the company cannot amend at their whim. Ask a grown-up why your RPs are different.
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 12th Sep 2012 at 05:41.
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Glass not empty or glass too big?
I not normally a cheerleader for the AOA, however I am mindful the RPs and Housing are two agreements the company would love to change. Warts and all, those two agreements are the reason I am still here. However, both Agreements only came about through the efforts of AOA volunteers and the members who funded/,supported those volunteers.
Even this week we have seen a group of pilots (Union and non-union) stand together and prize a small, but nonethess valuable, concession out of the company. However, Barronflyer is unaware of that. For him, the glass is not half full, but empty and his fellow pilots have failed to refill it.
The small concession attained this week probably came at a disproportionate price in terms of both dollars/Euros and volunteers time, however any concession achieved has to be valued, as it clear the new GMA does not think our glass is half full or half empty,- he thinks our glass is too big!!
Even this week we have seen a group of pilots (Union and non-union) stand together and prize a small, but nonethess valuable, concession out of the company. However, Barronflyer is unaware of that. For him, the glass is not half full, but empty and his fellow pilots have failed to refill it.
The small concession attained this week probably came at a disproportionate price in terms of both dollars/Euros and volunteers time, however any concession achieved has to be valued, as it clear the new GMA does not think our glass is half full or half empty,- he thinks our glass is too big!!
Exactamundo
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Oval,
I'm not interested in this going on forever. I do, however, think there is room for both optimism (as Liam addressed) and realism. They are not mutually exclusive regardless of this group's history or your own jaded perspective. I would rather be a "dreamer" than what you are because I believe this job is and will continue to be much better than a contract job. We have and will continue to do better than market forces even with the less than perfectly unified group we have now. Note that guys like you do nothing to help things, even if you are not a scab.
In closing I'll ask you (and anyone who would like to answer), would the company rather have with 2800 Ovals or 2800 cxorcists in their quest to lower costs? I think we all know the answer to that one. Your pessimistic attitude serves only to embrace the conciliation the company strives for. I'll leave you with some things this group has done well over the last few years:
- membership drive to over 80% from 50%
- informal integration of the LPF into the AOA
- educational allowance and HKPA for non-expat pilots
- SLS 2009 which was repaid (mostly)
- 25 year housing (even if it is not in writing)
- AOA access to new joiners
- choice for RA55 and BPP or RA65
- valiant losing effort in the SO BPP case
- pay rise in 2011 with no concessions
- "favorable" result for AMS based pilots
- strong HKALPA and AOA influence on new FTLs
- freighter PX win without legal expense in court
- collective bargaining negotiations in both Oz and Canada
- undetermined, but hopeful, result for Paris based pilots
I'm sure I missed some. Feel free to add to the list...
I'm not interested in this going on forever. I do, however, think there is room for both optimism (as Liam addressed) and realism. They are not mutually exclusive regardless of this group's history or your own jaded perspective. I would rather be a "dreamer" than what you are because I believe this job is and will continue to be much better than a contract job. We have and will continue to do better than market forces even with the less than perfectly unified group we have now. Note that guys like you do nothing to help things, even if you are not a scab.
In closing I'll ask you (and anyone who would like to answer), would the company rather have with 2800 Ovals or 2800 cxorcists in their quest to lower costs? I think we all know the answer to that one. Your pessimistic attitude serves only to embrace the conciliation the company strives for. I'll leave you with some things this group has done well over the last few years:
- membership drive to over 80% from 50%
- informal integration of the LPF into the AOA
- educational allowance and HKPA for non-expat pilots
- SLS 2009 which was repaid (mostly)
- 25 year housing (even if it is not in writing)
- AOA access to new joiners
- choice for RA55 and BPP or RA65
- valiant losing effort in the SO BPP case
- pay rise in 2011 with no concessions
- "favorable" result for AMS based pilots
- strong HKALPA and AOA influence on new FTLs
- freighter PX win without legal expense in court
- collective bargaining negotiations in both Oz and Canada
- undetermined, but hopeful, result for Paris based pilots
I'm sure I missed some. Feel free to add to the list...