Freighter PX'ing..either way you're shafted!
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I've heard that just over 50 pilots signed the px letter. Let's put it this way, out of the disappointment that only a few signed the letter, things will change in a way so that we have some time to reconsider and have the opportunity to sign the letter at any time in the coming months. As such I heard bases are off the table, the average monthly roster on the 747 freighter is 2-3 days longer, no PD, rostered PT's have to be taken, can not be changed and result in missed duty if you provide your own transport. My guess is that pilots who forgot that PT flights are now tracked with Amadeus will find themselves with 2 or 3 missed duties and terminated employment.
It is actually very sad that it has to be this way, as the whole issue could have been solved as a win / win for both parties. Bottom line and cost savings do not matter it is all about control. But is this really a surprise? The big question is, will you sign the letter in the future (especially B747 commuters)?
It is actually very sad that it has to be this way, as the whole issue could have been solved as a win / win for both parties. Bottom line and cost savings do not matter it is all about control. But is this really a surprise? The big question is, will you sign the letter in the future (especially B747 commuters)?
Last edited by GTC58; 9th Jun 2012 at 16:48.
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People. They make an airline.
(never mind the fact that we don't see them as people. we see them as enemies, liabilities, costs, troublemakers and degenerate whores - and consequently treat them as such in the name of profits and bonuses.)
People. They make an airline.
(but only on TV)
(never mind the fact that we don't see them as people. we see them as enemies, liabilities, costs, troublemakers and degenerate whores - and consequently treat them as such in the name of profits and bonuses.)
People. They make an airline.
(but only on TV)
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Disappointing
Clearly costs can be incurred in the pursuit of ill-thought out 19th Century Swire Prince Employee Enhancements.
For what it is worth, my understanding of the HAN-DAC day out was that the PX-ing crew's sectors didn't count (another silly rule...) and hence their available FDP was marginally longer to assist with this silly pattern on the final sector.
Livin' the Dream, Part of the Team (Not!)
For what it is worth, my understanding of the HAN-DAC day out was that the PX-ing crew's sectors didn't count (another silly rule...) and hence their available FDP was marginally longer to assist with this silly pattern on the final sector.
Livin' the Dream, Part of the Team (Not!)
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Guys,
Just for clarification purposes. Where is it stated that they would stop the requests for own transport? So stop PD? I'm reading several posts about that but that would be a pretty high cost for their operation. Even so I would STILL not sign.
I thought it was just not being allowed to take the trip on the freighter aircraft if not signed.
Just for clarification purposes. Where is it stated that they would stop the requests for own transport? So stop PD? I'm reading several posts about that but that would be a pretty high cost for their operation. Even so I would STILL not sign.
I thought it was just not being allowed to take the trip on the freighter aircraft if not signed.
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SQC:
Because everyone on board is now operating, the FDP is much more restrictive. You really need to look at 15.5, and work through all the clauses. It is not as simple as crew swapping out. I understand the company will just call it "operating" instead of PXing, but calling it operating also means it is a three sector FDP which means 12.5hrs max. Which is why you need relief.
And 8hrs credit is not even close, try more like 14hrs. The whole shabang is operating, so it accrues the appropriate credit. In fact, I have to check my CoS, but the credit factor might actually be 1.14 since the sectors only require 2 pilots.
Anyway, this pattern will have to change. But the options are too many to predict. They could split it in HAN or DAC, so turns into a two day pattern with loads of room for delays. Splitting it would still require 4 crews, so it would be the same as using 4 and running a barely legal pattern that has no fat for delays. Or, they could PX crew in and out of HAN on passenger planes.
I hope they turn it into a 4 man crew 3 sector day. Like I said, the credit hours would be quite high ad it would get a lot of your flying out of the way pretty damn quick. Bring it on!
This pattern (and similar) can be done as currently with the commander changing after the second sector the difference being we all get full credit.
And 8hrs credit is not even close, try more like 14hrs. The whole shabang is operating, so it accrues the appropriate credit. In fact, I have to check my CoS, but the credit factor might actually be 1.14 since the sectors only require 2 pilots.
Anyway, this pattern will have to change. But the options are too many to predict. They could split it in HAN or DAC, so turns into a two day pattern with loads of room for delays. Splitting it would still require 4 crews, so it would be the same as using 4 and running a barely legal pattern that has no fat for delays. Or, they could PX crew in and out of HAN on passenger planes.
I hope they turn it into a 4 man crew 3 sector day. Like I said, the credit hours would be quite high ad it would get a lot of your flying out of the way pretty damn quick. Bring it on!
Last edited by Sqwak7700; 10th Jun 2012 at 00:58.
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And 8hrs credit is not even close, try more like 14hrs.
Don't you mean the clock keeps ticking for the FTL limitation?
Fortunately, no captain would be foolish enough to use discretion, right? And, if he tried to use discretion, the crew he must consult with before making a decision would inform him that they would be too fatigued to complete the pattern, right? And, if he still planned to use discretion, the crew who already indicated they felt unsafe to continue due to fatigue would have no choice but to declare themselves unfit for duty, right?
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I think it's called lateral thinking. The max FDP is 12h30m and as currently scheduled produces an opportunity for 4h15m of IFR only 50 mins of which accrues on the final sector. That leaves 3h25m available on the first 2 sectors which extends the FDP of the 3rd sector operating crew by 1h42m ie total FDP allowed of 14h12m. The other crew will run out of FDP at some stage on the final sector but the wording of 15.5 E is pretty woolly and subject to "interpretation" by ICM - full credit so isn't PX perhaps - and if required to get back in seat discretion is available. In effect all 4 crew can stay on board throughout but if anyone decides to get off in HAN then I'm sure an O day will follow this pattern to cater for that. But would anyone really want to get off instead of getting home on full credit - which would be 8h15mins - double crew utilising IFR. Not ideal from the fatigue point of view so hopefully they will re-build these long 3 sector days into 2sector days with slips etc. as I argued on page 1.
edited to show correct credit as 8h15m (schedule)
edited to show correct credit as 8h15m (schedule)
Last edited by SQC7991; 10th Jun 2012 at 03:45.
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the last few i have done accumulated 7.80 hours total block time on average
4 man crew credit 1.0 x 7.80 = 7.80
Aren't there a couple of middle east patterns require only 2 but three rostered
4 man crew credit 1.0 x 7.80 = 7.80
Aren't there a couple of middle east patterns require only 2 but three rostered
Last edited by turnandburn; 10th Jun 2012 at 02:47.
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Huh? Since when does anyone get credit for sitting on the ground for 2 hours during loading?
With no delays, the total credit will be closer to 8hrs, my apologies.
Another aspect from CoS which would be relevant is the required crew complement. Lets say CC wants you to PX out to Jakarta on the freighter. You say no thanks, they say fine, we will put you as operating.
Since the flight only requires 2 crew, you would be "additional crew member carried for other reasons", so the credit factor should still be 1.14 even though all three or four of you are operating. So another bit of good news, although it would not surprise me if they try to make the credit 1.00 if no one is looking close enough.
