Freighter PX'ing..either way you're shafted!
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7700, The relief guys can get off at HAN and return to HKG on a local pax flight. During the previous two sectors they will have provided an extension to the operating crews Max FDP by (flight time HKG-DAC-HAN minus 2 hrs)/2 which will prob be adequate for them to operate the 3rd sector home.
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Liam:
Liam, you telling me that all four crew members are achieving 4.02 of rest in this pattern? Remember that you have to subtract 1:00 of available rest time from each sector.
2.01 ext due inflight rest
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Like I say, FTLs not my speciality,
Try 15.5,
Ask yourself this, if the pattern could be achieved by inflight relief, why did the company not do it before? They loaded 2 CNs and 2 FO's and yet still relied, on occasion, on the crew operating the final sector going into discretion (or not
).
Surely easier to keep the pattern the same and use the Aussies and Canadians in whatever order is necessary to get the pattern done. Whichever one is burnt out is PX.
Try 15.5,
Ask yourself this, if the pattern could be achieved by inflight relief, why did the company not do it before? They loaded 2 CNs and 2 FO's and yet still relied, on occasion, on the crew operating the final sector going into discretion (or not
).Surely easier to keep the pattern the same and use the Aussies and Canadians in whatever order is necessary to get the pattern done. Whichever one is burnt out is PX.
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The relief guys can get off at HAN and return to HKG on a local pax flight. During the previous two sectors they will have provided an extension to the operating crews Max FDP by (flight time HKG-DAC-HAN minus 2 hrs)/2 which will prob be adequate for them to operate the 3rd sector home.
Will actually be a great pattern, I'm gonna definitely have to bid it. As someone already pointed out, you will achieve around 14hrs credit in one day if you are operating all three sectors. You do 6 of these in one month and that is your 84hrs without ever spending a single night away from home!
Awesome, these are gonna be really popular patterns!
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Liam, one reason - crew cost for said scheduled 3 sectors and one set of crew only accrueing 50% of first 2 sectors so avail for more duty for remainder of the month.
Last edited by fire wall; 9th Jun 2012 at 08:37.
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7700,
agreed...i think this would be a perfect hours builder in a month. That said, i have flown with many who have agreed to being PX'd on the freighter so i suspect nothing much will really change.
So much for wisdom coming with age!
agreed...i think this would be a perfect hours builder in a month. That said, i have flown with many who have agreed to being PX'd on the freighter so i suspect nothing much will really change.
So much for wisdom coming with age!
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Liam:
Sorry Liam, but what makes you think they can continue to violate the CoS of Aussies and Canadians? They were excluded from the offer to OPT IN, because the company is not allowed to approach individuals with changes to their CoS. That would be considered a breach of collective bargaining / enterprise agreement. They are NOT excluded from ceasing to violate their CoS.
If anything, the FDPs of Canadians at least will be more limiting since they will be un-aclimatised. If they achieve the less restrictive rest, then they can go to 11.5 FDP, which is way too short for this pattern. Considering that most of our overnights fit into the 18-30 hr rest block that they are supposed to avoid, it is likely that their max FDP will actually be 10.5 hrs.
Surely easier to keep the pattern the same and use the Aussies and Canadians in whatever order is necessary
If anything, the FDPs of Canadians at least will be more limiting since they will be un-aclimatised. If they achieve the less restrictive rest, then they can go to 11.5 FDP, which is way too short for this pattern. Considering that most of our overnights fit into the 18-30 hr rest block that they are supposed to avoid, it is likely that their max FDP will actually be 10.5 hrs.
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squawk
You so need to join the AOA.
Firewall,
So what paragraph of the FTLs are the company going to rely upon to crew the pattern with in-flight relief?
Firewall,
So what paragraph of the FTLs are the company going to rely upon to crew the pattern with in-flight relief?
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 9th Jun 2012 at 09:00.
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I have, have you?
They can not put freighter PX on the published roster of Canada and Oz. Ozzies do not PX on the freighter much as it is, so not really a big change for them. The Captain overstaff in SYD is offset by using Captains as relief on the freighter flight up. The others can be PXed on the passenger. Done that pattern many times, PX down to Oz or back to Hongkers on the A330.
They can not put freighter PX on the published roster of Canada and Oz. Ozzies do not PX on the freighter much as it is, so not really a big change for them. The Captain overstaff in SYD is offset by using Captains as relief on the freighter flight up. The others can be PXed on the passenger. Done that pattern many times, PX down to Oz or back to Hongkers on the A330.
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Sqwak
I read a post on the 1st June. The person writing that post was in a position to know more than me and I took his comments at face value. You obviously read that post and drew a different conclusion.
We shall know more in a few days.
We shall know more in a few days.
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 9th Jun 2012 at 09:42.
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turn and burn
You will have to talk me through the paragraphs, however 15.5C and D could be a problem.
I imagine that given enough time, I am sure you and Chr1$ 0ylund could come up with a "if, "but" and "maybe" plan. However, any Captain agreeing to this nonsense should take the top of the FTLs in his left hand and the bottom in the right hand and rip the FTLs apart in the name of what, corporate profits?
If it is about money, why not just do a deal with the AOA, as their proposal seems cheaper and the company at least pretends to be mindful of FTLs.
I imagine that given enough time, I am sure you and Chr1$ 0ylund could come up with a "if, "but" and "maybe" plan. However, any Captain agreeing to this nonsense should take the top of the FTLs in his left hand and the bottom in the right hand and rip the FTLs apart in the name of what, corporate profits?
If it is about money, why not just do a deal with the AOA, as their proposal seems cheaper and the company at least pretends to be mindful of FTLs.
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i agree with ripping them up
HKG-DAC about 03.20
DAC-HAN about 02.15
HAN-HKG about 01.30
CN and FO in the seat operating take 2 hrs first sector 1 hr 2nd sector.
Other 2 zip
HKG-DAC about 03.20
DAC-HAN about 02.15
HAN-HKG about 01.30
CN and FO in the seat operating take 2 hrs first sector 1 hr 2nd sector.
Other 2 zip
Last edited by turnandburn; 9th Jun 2012 at 10:24.
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on Normal OPs only the 2 operating need the rest .
the other 2 are rostered to be relief.
they also are not rostered to px on last sector,but actually operate.
it just mocks the statements about safety its just about dollars.
All four end up with about 8 hrs credit and a big fatigue threat on arrival in hkg
the other 2 are rostered to be relief.
they also are not rostered to px on last sector,but actually operate.
it just mocks the statements about safety its just about dollars.
All four end up with about 8 hrs credit and a big fatigue threat on arrival in hkg
Last edited by turnandburn; 9th Jun 2012 at 10:42.
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turn and burn
Like I said, if motivated you can agree anything.
However, come the day a CN is asked to detail his FTL calculations, does professionalism not dictate that you are in the seat til TOC and back in the seat 1 hr before landing? Therefore, it is difficult for the company to say crew achieved anything like 2 hours rest on a 3.20 sector.
I am sure there are CNs out there that will agree/ justify anything, however once you are of that mindset, just ditch the FTLs and cash your paycheck.
As for the relief crew, if they don't get 3 hours rest on the first 2 sectors (which means they have to be in the bunk for TO and Ldg as the CN will only be in the seat for 1:30 each sector), they are out of hours when they get to HAN. They therefore cannot participate in the final sector and contractually cannot Freighter PX back to HKG.
One historical issue with this pattern is ground delays in DAC. I am not sure that inflight relief will cut it for the CN in this case.
Frankly, if it was doable, the company would already have done it. No doubt some crew will prove me wrong, but it smacks of desperation.
However, come the day a CN is asked to detail his FTL calculations, does professionalism not dictate that you are in the seat til TOC and back in the seat 1 hr before landing? Therefore, it is difficult for the company to say crew achieved anything like 2 hours rest on a 3.20 sector.
I am sure there are CNs out there that will agree/ justify anything, however once you are of that mindset, just ditch the FTLs and cash your paycheck.
As for the relief crew, if they don't get 3 hours rest on the first 2 sectors (which means they have to be in the bunk for TO and Ldg as the CN will only be in the seat for 1:30 each sector), they are out of hours when they get to HAN. They therefore cannot participate in the final sector and contractually cannot Freighter PX back to HKG.
One historical issue with this pattern is ground delays in DAC. I am not sure that inflight relief will cut it for the CN in this case.
Frankly, if it was doable, the company would already have done it. No doubt some crew will prove me wrong, but it smacks of desperation.
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the relief crew don't get any rest thats ULR.
The CN/FO only require at least 3 hours rest that need not be consecutive.
i ridiculous option carry extra fuel and do enroute hold.
I not trying to justify what they are going to do just trying to show what the will try.
been awake since 4am so spelling and grammar failing.
The CN/FO only require at least 3 hours rest that need not be consecutive.
i ridiculous option carry extra fuel and do enroute hold.
I not trying to justify what they are going to do just trying to show what the will try.
been awake since 4am so spelling and grammar failing.
Last edited by turnandburn; 9th Jun 2012 at 11:51.
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Turn and Burn
The relief crew should not/will not provide any relief on the final sector which is 1 hr 30 and under 15.5e they are therefore positioning. However, contractually they cannot PX, therefore they should get off in HAN.
I still don't see how a rolling delay in DAC is handled. Even fudging the figures, the most the CN's duty is extended is probably 90 mins. However, he needs most of that to get the 3 sectors in.
Surely, easier to just use Canucks, Aussies and volunteers. Time will tell.
I still don't see how a rolling delay in DAC is handled. Even fudging the figures, the most the CN's duty is extended is probably 90 mins. However, he needs most of that to get the 3 sectors in.
Surely, easier to just use Canucks, Aussies and volunteers. Time will tell.
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rolling delay won't be handled well i would imagine.
Practically no relief will be provided for third sector theoretically only 1 minute would cover it.
on long haul the relief crew don't position the last hour.
same clause is in normal ops they won't px they will be rostered to operate even though they probably will not even get in the seat. there is no requirement to be in the seat.
it will be a bit like safety pilot you are operating but not in the seat and not pxing
i thought i was a pilot now it seems i am becoming a lawyer
it seems ridiculous to me
its words smoke and mirrors.
6 days to see how the crewing is done 3 weeks to see if it works.
i don't want to be guinea pig number 1
Practically no relief will be provided for third sector theoretically only 1 minute would cover it.
on long haul the relief crew don't position the last hour.
same clause is in normal ops they won't px they will be rostered to operate even though they probably will not even get in the seat. there is no requirement to be in the seat.
it will be a bit like safety pilot you are operating but not in the seat and not pxing
i thought i was a pilot now it seems i am becoming a lawyer
it seems ridiculous to me
its words smoke and mirrors.
6 days to see how the crewing is done 3 weeks to see if it works.
i don't want to be guinea pig number 1
Last edited by turnandburn; 9th Jun 2012 at 12:39.
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Am I missing something? You all seem to be assuming the commander must be the same on all 3 sectors. If a double crew then command can change on one of the turns. Everyone is still operating if so designated on the roster so no one has to get off in HAN for contractual reasons. This pattern (and similar) can be done as currently with the commander changing after the second sector the difference being we all get full credit. This is a win so why all the effort trying to prove it isn't or that it can't be done? However the fatigue problem would remain so hopefully they will decide to do what they always did in the past and roster these patterns as 2 man sectors with slipping or contractual positioning as appropriate. Either way significant progress will have been made.