Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

HKG ATC out of control

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

HKG ATC out of control

Old 22nd May 2012, 22:22
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sai Kungah
Posts: 199
Broadband, you beat me to it!
jed_thrust is offline  
Old 22nd May 2012, 22:53
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 246
so, why not take CFP, and divert when you reach your diversion fuel?
Because the reality is on a good day even with a bit of holding you always have enough to land in HKG...show me one example of an aircraft having to divert to Macau because of excessive holding.

On a bad day you would be an idiot to carry CFP fuel.

Last edited by Flap10; 22nd May 2012 at 22:54.
Flap10 is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 01:23
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 2,018
I don't mind diverting when it adds to the EFP tab, assuming no dinner plans. The rest of the time, it is at least an extra half hour for me.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 06:50
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Out of the pollution.
Posts: 674
Exactly.. that Emirates on 07L earned me .6 @ double EFP.. paid for some concert tickets. Love the uselessness of the new batch of controllers. Can't wait for a third runaway. It will buy my boat.
AAIGUY is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 10:36
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: in the training office
Posts: 240
thanks to Norman Foster and the legacy of the ex colonial govt. hell bent on locating the airport in the "Territory" next to Lantau/Sunset Peak
I think at least you got the first name correct of who is responsible for this mess!

Nice roof mind.

PS. Who is the 'angry young man' in the tower?

Last edited by Adam Nams; 23rd May 2012 at 10:36.
Adam Nams is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 13:40
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: home
Posts: 359
You want perspective ? Trying flying into good old Perth, Western Australia, half the traffic, no terrain, bugger all weather, no airspace issues and almost as bad delays.
airdualbleedfault is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 14:29
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 43
Posts: 973
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that ATC in AUS can be terrible also. ADL, more than one plane in the sky and things can slow down.

What has it got to do with the shocking HKG ATC? Because some other places have issues it is OK to have incompetence in HKG? It is OK to have very inexperienced controllers in a very busy part of the world loosing the plot when there are some clouds?

Your argument seems to be based on race, white guys in AUS are bad so stop complaining about the asians in HKG? Is that it? Some people are missing the point.
SloppyJoe is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 14:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 754
The real issue is not race Sloppy Joe, but experience.

Some individuals (not just on PPRuNe) try to make it about race, in an attempt to brush over the real issue - experience.

When they were hiring expats, the min experience requirements to even get interview meant that only ultra-experienced candidates were considered. Post '97, with "localisation" came the idea of training locals from scratch.

As Dan Winterland correctly points out:

They're thrust striaght into the deep end - as if a new ATC cadet in the UK has been put stright into the approach controller's position at London Centre instsead of working his/her way up from Norwich tower. It's not the controller's fault. Blame the system that put them there, and the managers whose main aim is to save money.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.
broadband circuit is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 18:02
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 1,007
They're thrust striaght into the deep end - as if a new ATC cadet in the UK has been put stright into the approach controller's position at London Centre instsead of working his/her way up from Norwich tower. It's not the controller's fault. Blame the system that put them there, and the managers whose main aim is to save money.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.
Pretty much spot on. In busier parts of the world, you get there after many years of "earning" your credentials.

I guess ATC is suffering from the same race to the bottom, led by professional accountant-managers.

Might be a good time for ships to make a comeback. Where did I put that Italian cruise line ticket...
Sqwak7700 is offline  
Old 23rd May 2012, 23:42
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: here
Posts: 23
yes, Broadband,you are correct. It does all boil down to experience.....BUT....In H.K. ,they now not only have a lot of inexperienced controllers,we are burdened with a lot of really below average controllers,some bordering on incompetent, whose command of English is very poor and who cannot ad-lid,can't think outside the box,have no idea of what common sense means and simply,really don't know what A.T.C. is trying to achieve. This is fact, not just a racist thing.Things will only get worse as the experienced expats leave. By 2015 ,I think that there will only be a dozen or so left . Good luck,keep a sharp look-out.
watsup is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 03:09
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 233
NOT JUST CONTROLLERS

QUOTE:They're thrust striaght into the deep end - as if a new ATC cadet in the UK has been put stright into the approach controller's position at London Centre instsead of working his/her way up from Norwich tower. It's not the controller's fault. Blame the system that put them there, and the managers whose main aim is to save money.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.

Sounds pretty much like new pilot recruits.
AnAmusedReader is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 03:15
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 36
It sounds chaotic in the HK airspace
airgent is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 03:35
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nfa
Posts: 123
250kts for transition - 230kts thru FL130 - 200kts on downwind. Followed by, you guessed it, radar vectors to join final at 1500' so tight that we are going to fly thru the glideslope before gaining the LOC. Only VMC conditions allow us to start down as we join - not an everyday condition with the weather and pollution these days.

On the job training is not an acceptable method to train controllers for the kind of flying in HKG.
bm330 is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 05:20
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: MCO (occasionally)
Posts: 387
Some of the most difficult ATC direction I've had in the past year was at EWR/TEB. For example, I was giving a heading to intercept at EWR and the turn to final was 110 degrees,,,, (a little more than the customary 30 degrees eh?). I heard from an FAA inspector that over 50% had been there less than a year. Whatever the accurate number is, it shows a great deal of transition. I didn't care to ask if the controller was Chinese or French or US or both or all three.

In my book, HK is far better than similar places like JED or DXB, I'd give them a mark of "upper half" in my world wide rankings.

FR
FrankR is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 08:08
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 85
HKG ATC isn't too bad (not un safe), just incompetent due to a lack of experience. One sector will have you a min speed, the next at barbers pole, so not very efficient. But considering their lack of experience, they are doing their best.

Aussi ATC is different. Couldn't manage a piss up at the brewery, but think they are the best in world. Speed control for arrival slots a bad joke (probably wastes more fuel than HKG ATC), think they are busy (when they are not), will file against you for the smallest of perceived violations (how many miles off track must you be to be off track?).

LHR - best controllers in the world. Friggen superb! Do as your told (speed and vertical profile), everyone nicely spaced. No drama. If HKG or Aussi ATC could be halve as good as LHR we would be onto a good thing.
cxlinedriver is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 08:57
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Here & there
Posts: 762
LHR - best controllers in the world.
Hear, hear - and what's more, they do it without the aggro that is so prevalent amongst Australian and US controllers.

Last edited by BuzzBox; 24th May 2012 at 08:58.
BuzzBox is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 09:29
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 322
Aussi ATC

..... second best in the world !!!
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 09:36
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: home
Posts: 359
Sloppy Joe, you couldn't be more off track if you DRed from HKG-LHR.

Just saying that HK are not the worst around considering what they are up against, not saying that they shouldn't be better.

As for the race card, jeezuz, even the leftiest of lefties would have had trouble coming up with that one, good effort.
airdualbleedfault is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 09:55
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: No longer in Hong kong
Age: 71
Posts: 200
Baron Captain....Phew, where do I start?..."rapidly becoming the worst ATC in the World" eh? Now that's a pretty subjective call. It's so easy to chuck around epithets in a semi public domain, and then feel good about it.

I'd just like to discuss your comments about runway changes. For starters you have your point of residence as "Australia", and yet you insinuate that you have lot's of HKG operating experience. So may I surmise you're CX Aussie based? Anyway Ocker, I would have thought by now, that any CX pilot operating here (HKG) would be well aware that for probably more than 50% of any one day, we have a downwind component at every one of the four runway thresholds...I think it might have something to do with the huge lumps of terrain that encircles this airport! So, what to do? Eventually we have to make big decisions as to whether to run with the 7's, or go to 25. This is predicated somewhat by: the amount of downwind reports that our highly sophisticated instruments (and pilot reports) are telling us; windshear and turbulence; forecast wind trends; reported winds at 500' to 1500'; and of course disposition of traffic. We take all of these issues into account and then have to make the big decision as to whether or not to change runway direction. Changing runways is a total pain in the arse, for us (as controllers) and for the industry in general. Some RWY changes can take nearly an hour from inception to completion. If you think that we take this lightly, well I assess you as being a fool. Sure, you get frustrated and you vent your spleen about reaching the 25L departure point, only to be told "....downwind 7kts clear for take-off", but we have a wind environment here that we struggle with on a daily - no make that hourly basis, to come to grips with. Every runway change that we do causes back ups that can sometimes take hours to sort out the subsequent mess.

Any useful guidance from you as to how to get around this wind situation in HKG would be greatly appreciated, but somehow I doubt it.

Last edited by Bedder believeit; 24th May 2012 at 09:56.
Bedder believeit is offline  
Old 24th May 2012, 20:55
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South-ish
Posts: 23
Angel HKG has an AMAN nuff said

pointless slow downs , delays !!!! HKG has an AMAN
looneykeycode is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.