HKG ATC out of control
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Bedder Believeit
We all agree that runway changes are a pain and any sane professional appreciates the challenges HK presents in both deciding and administering a runway change.
You called for suggestions. How about warning of an impending runway change on the ATIS with an expected time of change?
I have no doubt you will reply that you do this in any event. The reality in my experience is that I have never seen it on the ATIS and often we are taxi-ing for 07 and then told that we will be for 25 (or vice-versa). However, when we look out the window or at TCAS we can see aircraft on the 25 approach. We, not unreasonably, conclude that someone in the "ATC world" both knew and auctioned a runway change a long time ago, but that information was not communicated down the line.
Perhaps the answer lies in the person who decides runway changes, sets off a series of dominoes that results in a new ATIS containing a warning of impending change and expected time. This should also be backed up by a combine call on Gnd and Del along the lines, " new ATIS x, expected runway change at ......".
This will reduce cockpit workload during a dynamic phase and hopefully reduce the amount of radio calls on these freqs. Whether or not combine calls are made on the various radar freqs for inbound traffic, I'm not so sure......
Just sayin like....innit...
You called for suggestions. How about warning of an impending runway change on the ATIS with an expected time of change?
I have no doubt you will reply that you do this in any event. The reality in my experience is that I have never seen it on the ATIS and often we are taxi-ing for 07 and then told that we will be for 25 (or vice-versa). However, when we look out the window or at TCAS we can see aircraft on the 25 approach. We, not unreasonably, conclude that someone in the "ATC world" both knew and auctioned a runway change a long time ago, but that information was not communicated down the line.
Perhaps the answer lies in the person who decides runway changes, sets off a series of dominoes that results in a new ATIS containing a warning of impending change and expected time. This should also be backed up by a combine call on Gnd and Del along the lines, " new ATIS x, expected runway change at ......".
This will reduce cockpit workload during a dynamic phase and hopefully reduce the amount of radio calls on these freqs. Whether or not combine calls are made on the various radar freqs for inbound traffic, I'm not so sure......
Just sayin like....innit...
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 24th May 2012 at 21:52.
Austalian ATC is the second best ATC on the planet. One thing they do well is to broadcast when the ATIS has changed, or about to change, with the actual changes, e.g. 'New Brisbane information bravo, the changes, the wind now 160 at 12'. Saves work for everybody.
Also, it seems to be an Asian thing not to advise when things are about to change; only when they have changed, e.g. runway change in HKG, runway closures in TPE. And these robotic ATIS changes every half hour, even with little or no change in conditions, that you get in Taiwan and Japan... what's the point?
Also, it seems to be an Asian thing not to advise when things are about to change; only when they have changed, e.g. runway change in HKG, runway closures in TPE. And these robotic ATIS changes every half hour, even with little or no change in conditions, that you get in Taiwan and Japan... what's the point?
Last edited by Captain Dart; 24th May 2012 at 22:30.
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Hi Liam
You come up with some useful observations. What happens now:
1. The two AMC's (N and S) will be watching things and trying to get a feel for the best option. EIther to change runways or stay put.
2. They'll discuss with the Tower supervisor that a Runway change is either: (a) A good idea, or (b) a necessity.
3.If it's the latter, then it happens immediately and everyone just has to live with it. If there's some flex in it, the tower supervisor will ring to Approach supervisor and say: "wind seems to be favouring (new runway) let me know what you want".
4. At this point the tower co-ordinator will generally give a heads up to the Delivery person and the Ground controllers along the lines of "Hey guys, (possible/definite) runway change (likely/imminent).
5. THe Approach cell are the major determinants of when the last landing will occur. This may be in 10 minutes (a quick change) or in 40 minutes.
6. Meanwhile, the delivery person will generally give a heads up to possible effectees. This is not always possible because of the unknown time frame from the Approach cell.
7. ATIS reflecting the new runway will be prepared but often not actioned until the last minute. Bear in mind that it takes time to prepare the ATIS and for the tower assistant to record same. This is even more time consuming during periods of particularly inclement weather when many changes are taking place.
8. The Approach cell will advise the tower co-ordinator, of a "Last lander on old runway" along with an expected landing time.
9. FRom this, a clearance expiry time for the last departure off the "old" runway will be agreed normally about 6 minutes before the last landing takes place.
10. Meanwhile the GMS (Ground South) pretty much has a final say as to who will be the last "old runway departure" though often there will be mutual discussion between the AMS/Supervisor and GMS.
11. When it's been decided, then Delivery and the relavant GMC's will give updated SID's.
12. Me personally, as soon as I hear of an impending runway change and I'm on Ground, I like to give out what I think is a good guess to impending departures as to what to expect. THis is not always possible due to the variable time frame that Approach may take to decide the "last landing".
13. Worse case scenario's are an immediate change with little or no lead in time, such as mentioned by the Baron man, and we just have to turn everyone around and go to the new runway. This is bound to happen, when due to weather deviations in Departures airspace and we have say 4 minutes departure flow, there will invariabaly be a long queue at the old threshold that will need the new runway...and yes...sometimes with a downwind component at the start point.
Sorry to be so long "winded"
You come up with some useful observations. What happens now:
1. The two AMC's (N and S) will be watching things and trying to get a feel for the best option. EIther to change runways or stay put.
2. They'll discuss with the Tower supervisor that a Runway change is either: (a) A good idea, or (b) a necessity.
3.If it's the latter, then it happens immediately and everyone just has to live with it. If there's some flex in it, the tower supervisor will ring to Approach supervisor and say: "wind seems to be favouring (new runway) let me know what you want".
4. At this point the tower co-ordinator will generally give a heads up to the Delivery person and the Ground controllers along the lines of "Hey guys, (possible/definite) runway change (likely/imminent).
5. THe Approach cell are the major determinants of when the last landing will occur. This may be in 10 minutes (a quick change) or in 40 minutes.
6. Meanwhile, the delivery person will generally give a heads up to possible effectees. This is not always possible because of the unknown time frame from the Approach cell.
7. ATIS reflecting the new runway will be prepared but often not actioned until the last minute. Bear in mind that it takes time to prepare the ATIS and for the tower assistant to record same. This is even more time consuming during periods of particularly inclement weather when many changes are taking place.
8. The Approach cell will advise the tower co-ordinator, of a "Last lander on old runway" along with an expected landing time.
9. FRom this, a clearance expiry time for the last departure off the "old" runway will be agreed normally about 6 minutes before the last landing takes place.
10. Meanwhile the GMS (Ground South) pretty much has a final say as to who will be the last "old runway departure" though often there will be mutual discussion between the AMS/Supervisor and GMS.
11. When it's been decided, then Delivery and the relavant GMC's will give updated SID's.
12. Me personally, as soon as I hear of an impending runway change and I'm on Ground, I like to give out what I think is a good guess to impending departures as to what to expect. THis is not always possible due to the variable time frame that Approach may take to decide the "last landing".
13. Worse case scenario's are an immediate change with little or no lead in time, such as mentioned by the Baron man, and we just have to turn everyone around and go to the new runway. This is bound to happen, when due to weather deviations in Departures airspace and we have say 4 minutes departure flow, there will invariabaly be a long queue at the old threshold that will need the new runway...and yes...sometimes with a downwind component at the start point.
Sorry to be so long "winded"
Last edited by Bedder believeit; 24th May 2012 at 23:21.
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Mate, that wasn't long winded at all, just a clear depiction of the steps involved. There are obviously aspects about some ATC occurence that we are not going to understand, sometimes there are good reasons, for which we are unaware, other times there appears to be no sensible reason for what presents as an inefficient stuff-up.
You may well be old gravel-voice who takes no prisoners with China Southern calling 3 times in 5 minutes for a clearance, it gives us a laugh, but your sensible outlook appears to sadly be a dying breed. What concerns us drivers is that when the last of you guys who can think outside of the box are eased out of ATC, the remnants as evidenced are poorly placed to take up the reins.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a race thing, but there have been some woeful local controllers on the radio of recent, and it won't take much of a combination of weather and blocked runways for the airspace to rapidly degenerate into a cluster-f@ck of mammoth proportions, where crew eventually decide they'll just tell the max'd-out local controller what they are doing, once they realize the controller has lost the plot.
I just wish the gov't would re-assess their localization policy and temper it with a degree of common sense to ensure continued safety, and that's only achieved with good experienced controllers.
You may well be old gravel-voice who takes no prisoners with China Southern calling 3 times in 5 minutes for a clearance, it gives us a laugh, but your sensible outlook appears to sadly be a dying breed. What concerns us drivers is that when the last of you guys who can think outside of the box are eased out of ATC, the remnants as evidenced are poorly placed to take up the reins.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a race thing, but there have been some woeful local controllers on the radio of recent, and it won't take much of a combination of weather and blocked runways for the airspace to rapidly degenerate into a cluster-f@ck of mammoth proportions, where crew eventually decide they'll just tell the max'd-out local controller what they are doing, once they realize the controller has lost the plot.
I just wish the gov't would re-assess their localization policy and temper it with a degree of common sense to ensure continued safety, and that's only achieved with good experienced controllers.
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Bedder, many thanks for the informative post. May I ask why is it HK ATC's ATIS is never updated? So many times we get the ATIS on arrival and its often 90-120 minutes old 
Longtimeincx, sadly as often is the case in aviation, governing bodies, companies etc. are reactive rather than proactive. It always comes down to the $$$. I just hope that it won't be the usual case of making the change once a serious incident has occurred.
Longtimeincx, sadly as often is the case in aviation, governing bodies, companies etc. are reactive rather than proactive. It always comes down to the $$$. I just hope that it won't be the usual case of making the change once a serious incident has occurred.
Why update it if there are no changes? It's just more work for pilots and ATC.
Precisely what I was griping about in my post no. 44.
Precisely what I was griping about in my post no. 44.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 25th May 2012 at 02:34.
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Dart, on the flight deck with ATIS which is 2 or may be 4 hours old (assuming ATC knows condition remained more or less the same), how do you know its reflecting the current condition? 
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As Dan Winterland correctly points out:
They're thrust striaght into the deep end - as if a new ATC cadet in the UK has been put stright into the approach controller's position at London Centre instsead of working his/her way up from Norwich tower. It's not the controller's fault. Blame the system that put them there, and the managers whose main aim is to save money.
At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.
At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.
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@10W
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed. As a moderator you should know better than to let facts get in the way of a good story!
Joking aside, I personally feel that the HK controllers generally do a pretty good job in often trying circumstances. I think that Bedder beliveit's description of some of the factors that ATC have to contend with on an operational level go a long way to explain the frustrations that we face as pilots. There's no doubt that the controlling could be better at times but this applies to most places I fly to.
STP
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed. As a moderator you should know better than to let facts get in the way of a good story!
Joking aside, I personally feel that the HK controllers generally do a pretty good job in often trying circumstances. I think that Bedder beliveit's description of some of the factors that ATC have to contend with on an operational level go a long way to explain the frustrations that we face as pilots. There's no doubt that the controlling could be better at times but this applies to most places I fly to.
STP
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Badairsucker
With my fair and balanced hat on. ATC can either say descend 4000' / climb 5000' or if they use the word "to" then they should add either Altitude or Flight Level before the numbers. Descend to Altitude 2500' which is supposed to remove any confusion over 2 or "to".
With my fair and balanced hat on. ATC can either say descend 4000' / climb 5000' or if they use the word "to" then they should add either Altitude or Flight Level before the numbers. Descend to Altitude 2500' which is supposed to remove any confusion over 2 or "to".
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As much notice as possible
I'm with Jizzmonkey on this. Tell us in advance what the requirements are. Changing the descent speed changes our TOD, and changing our speed after commencing descent destroys fuel inefficiency in the profile management. On the odd occasion where we try to be proactive & ask if there are any restrictions on the arrival, the response "next sector will advise" is simply not good enough. (I blame the system, not the controllers).
Can someone also please explain to the controllers that we are more than capable of managing our own profiles to achieve their requirements, all they need to do is tell us what they want to achieve. (I assume the less experienced ones are in this mindset). For example, give us a time to be at MURRY/MANGO/MELEN, FLxxx, speed from there xxx kts. And give it to us as soon as possible. Then, let us do the speed management stuff. The end result is less R/T transmissions, and more fuel efficient descent. If we can't make it, we will tell you as soon as possible, to allow you to vector us for the extra track miles.
And BTW, I don't mean tell us our planned time when we get to the FIR boundary, we should be able to get that at TOPC. The ATC system has our EET for each FIR boundary & our take-off time. Start planning as soon as we are airborne. Ok, maybe things might change a little bit during the flight, especially a long haul, but keep us updated. Losing 10 minutes between Sydney & NOMAN is easy. Losing 10 minutes between CARSO & MANGO is not.
This can all be fixed by instituting a position of "Flow Controller". I assume there is no such position at the moment. (Or, if there is, then it ain't working!).
Like I said, I blame the system and the managers, not the controllers.
Can someone also please explain to the controllers that we are more than capable of managing our own profiles to achieve their requirements, all they need to do is tell us what they want to achieve. (I assume the less experienced ones are in this mindset). For example, give us a time to be at MURRY/MANGO/MELEN, FLxxx, speed from there xxx kts. And give it to us as soon as possible. Then, let us do the speed management stuff. The end result is less R/T transmissions, and more fuel efficient descent. If we can't make it, we will tell you as soon as possible, to allow you to vector us for the extra track miles.
And BTW, I don't mean tell us our planned time when we get to the FIR boundary, we should be able to get that at TOPC. The ATC system has our EET for each FIR boundary & our take-off time. Start planning as soon as we are airborne. Ok, maybe things might change a little bit during the flight, especially a long haul, but keep us updated. Losing 10 minutes between Sydney & NOMAN is easy. Losing 10 minutes between CARSO & MANGO is not.
This can all be fixed by instituting a position of "Flow Controller". I assume there is no such position at the moment. (Or, if there is, then it ain't working!).
Like I said, I blame the system and the managers, not the controllers.
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With my fair and balanced hat on. ATC can either say descend 4000' / climb 5000' or if they use the word "to" then they should add either Altitude or Flight Level before the numbers. Descend to Altitude 2500' which is supposed to remove any confusion over 2 or "to".
But they are increasingly saying descent TO 8000 ft etc. Listen out on your next arrival.
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Apparently there was an ATC briefing in the soup slurping cafeteria at Dragonair 6 months ago. From what I heard in was very informative as to the ATC problems in HK and what they expect from us.
Unfortunately only Level 2 went and the actual users of the system ie the line-drivers were not invited.
Must of been a lot of commercial or more likely checking secrets because no-one from level 2 has ever told the line-drivers what went on.
Unfortunately only Level 2 went and the actual users of the system ie the line-drivers were not invited.
Must of been a lot of commercial or more likely checking secrets because no-one from level 2 has ever told the line-drivers what went on.
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I agree, ATC always says "Climb to 9000" on departure when we contact them. There is going to be a problem someday! I have written MOR's on this and asked for a reply from ATC, but have never heard anything in response.
I don't care what ICAO says, STOP SAYING CLIMB TO X THOUSAND!!
I don't care what ICAO says, STOP SAYING CLIMB TO X THOUSAND!!
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Caspar,
I looked up 12.3.1.1 and 12.3.1.2 and there it is in black on white: A requirement to use the word "To" and no requirement to use the word "Altitude" though "Flight Level" is required, the only part has always been clear to everyone, it seems.
I had never heard of the "altitude" prefix until I came to CX, and something always seemed fishy about it.
Thanks.
I looked up 12.3.1.1 and 12.3.1.2 and there it is in black on white: A requirement to use the word "To" and no requirement to use the word "Altitude" though "Flight Level" is required, the only part has always been clear to everyone, it seems.
I had never heard of the "altitude" prefix until I came to CX, and something always seemed fishy about it.
Thanks.
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CAP 413
Chapter 3 - General Phraseology
1.2.3
"However, care must be taken to ensure that misunderstandings are not generated as
a consequence of the phraseology employed during these phases of flight. For
example, levels may be reported as altitude, height or flight levels according to the
phase of flight and the altimeter setting. Therefore, when passing level messages,
the following conventions apply:
a) The word 'to' is to be omitted from messages relating to FLIGHT LEVELS.
b) All messages relating to an aircraft’s climb or descent to a HEIGHT or ALTITUDE
employ the word 'to' followed immediately by the word HEIGHT or ALTITUDE.
Furthermore, the initial message in any such RTF exchange will also include the
appropriate QFE or QNH."
ES
Chapter 3 - General Phraseology
1.2.3
"However, care must be taken to ensure that misunderstandings are not generated as
a consequence of the phraseology employed during these phases of flight. For
example, levels may be reported as altitude, height or flight levels according to the
phase of flight and the altimeter setting. Therefore, when passing level messages,
the following conventions apply:
a) The word 'to' is to be omitted from messages relating to FLIGHT LEVELS.
b) All messages relating to an aircraft’s climb or descent to a HEIGHT or ALTITUDE
employ the word 'to' followed immediately by the word HEIGHT or ALTITUDE.
Furthermore, the initial message in any such RTF exchange will also include the
appropriate QFE or QNH."
ES
Last edited by Edmund Spencer; 26th May 2012 at 14:35.