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Reminds you of what?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Reminds you of what?

Old 6th Dec 2011, 22:26
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Victoria, Canada
Age: 59
Posts: 100
Reminds you of what?

Copied from a US message board;
Originally Posted by corky
How is Emirates training course from (if hired) from day 1 to checked to the line?

I absolutely despise Emirates' training course. It is probably one of the worst experiences you will go through. Some people will say that it has gotten loads better over the years, well, its not good enough. List of problems.

1. Course is self-taught. There is a mentality here that being taught by an instructor is being "spoon-fed". I do not buy into that mentality as a lot of students learn better when the ability to ask questions while a course is progressing is afforded rather than just throwing a student in front of a computer system and a large pile of books and telling them to learn it. This is absolute laziness on the part of the instructors and the training department, not the student....the students have their platters full already.

2. EK has developed this sporty grading system that they think is really awesome. Unfortunately, the system allows instructors to grade you down on you not using their "technique" rather than just pass/fail on the use of SOP's specifically listed in the book. These guys will go so far as to read between the lines in the SOP's to convince you that their technique is actually an SOP and if you argue with them you will either be graded down more or marched up to the training managers office for a meeting. While I think MM is a great guy and wants to change things more, his hands are tied by those above his head.

3. EVERY event in training begins with the proverbial dick measuring circle. Tell us about where you came from and what you have flown. God help you if you are an RJ guy. You will immediately have a preconceived stigmata branded on your forehead that says you don't know anything and can't fly. During training, a couple of my friends studied with their flight partners, learned the same material, and did things exactly the same way as him (not in the sim, in the fixed base procedures trainer). Their flight partners (UK Boeing guys) got higher marks than they did probably because of a favorable nationality to the trainer and the Boeing background. Could they have complained. Yes. Would it have made things worse for them....yes. So they kept their mouths shut during the training.

4. If you are from the US, nothing that you learned in the US is right. Our radio procedures are all non-standard (to them) and apparently aircraft fly differently in Australia and the UK than they do in the US because all these guys want to re-train you on the "proper" way to fly an airplane and talk on the radio. Despite the fact that the USA has one of the best safety records and the lowest accident rates in the world, us "yanks" do not have enough book smarts and "airmanship" (a VERY overused term here) to make the engines turn smoothly on an Emirates Aircraft.

With all that said, if you just suck up your pride, nod your head, roll with the punches, and say "oh, I see" a lot, you will get through the training in one piece and be happy out on the line. There are TONS of great guys here that are good to fly with. I am not one to say bad things about EK, but this is the one area that I would love to see them clean house in and change the way things are done. We all have the same goal in mind and that is to be happy and make some money while enjoying our work. AFTER training all those goals are met.
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Old 6th Dec 2011, 23:39
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Up in the air
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cg, pleeeeeease change your name. have mercy.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 00:32
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Victoria, Canada
Age: 59
Posts: 100
From the same thread....
2 years into flying in Australia, after 12 years in the US, I've come to the conclusion it's because they have sub-concious feeling of inferiority. It's almost as if they (the Australians in particular) have to make operating an aircraft as difficult as possible, just to prove they're better at it.

I've come across some of the most mis-placed arrogance, I've ever witnessed in what is a pretty "cocky" profession, from guys who've never flown outside of Australia. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to be Australian and my heritage but they do a great job of sucking the fun out of what can be a great job.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 01:10
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: "Just Google Hedo Rick"
Age: 59
Posts: 45
Sad but true.

Some of the biggest pricks you will ever fly with are from OZ & I'm from Oz so I'm allowed to say so.

I remember being verbally abused for 20 minutes on the way to Inchon one day.

B777 approaching cloud "engine anti ice on", came out of cloud "engine anti ice off" as we did in the old procedures.

Well slap me silly you'd think I'd just tried to steer it into a mountain.

"You don't have the big picture, what are you doing? are you even thinking ahead of the aircraft? there's more cloud coming up soon! Why did you turn it off? did you consider just leaving it on??

1.) No A-hole I didn't consider leaving it on as the cloud is about 30 miles away

2.) Even if I did forget it's a 300 million dollar plane and it knows perfectly well when to do it itself.

3.) Change Of Procedures - "Engine Anti Ice Stays In Auto" just like the people who made the thing recommended in the first place.

My head is starting to hurt from banging this brick wall
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 03:04
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 137
Americans do have the worst R/T in the industry.
It may be ok in Des Moines, Dallas or Denver, but it's blatantly obvious when they get outside their comfort zone.
It's not the fault of the foreign controller who has limited English. It's the fault of the non-standard pilot.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 04:13
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 234
Here here HR,

I have seen it too - the insecurity, immaturity, aggro, hand throwing, scowling, swearing and a real lack of humility.

A generalisation sure, but applies to a majority who act cocksure but don't have much to back it up with.

Not much fun in it these days when sharing a cockpit with these ones.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 07:09
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 995
It's not the fault of the foreign controller who has limited English. It's the fault of the non-standard pilot.
Complete rubbish. Most people know english by commonly used language. That is why it is recommended that you speak in a way that will get your message across. Half of the terminology that you call "standard RT" would be completely unknown to many controllers in other countries.

Witnessed this in Indonesia with an anal Bifo trying to explain to ATC that we wanted to start one at the gate. After about 5 minutes of back and forth, the controller gave up and said approved - without really knowing what it was this **** wanted to do.

It was fun to watch though, I never knew someone's face could change color so much. Poor ol' guy certainly had a lot to say about how bad the controller's RT was. I'm sure he felt great and superior, but the end result was that the message was not received. To me, he has lost sight of the big picture.

Communication is a two way street, you have to be able to pick up on the cues when your message is not getting across. That to me, is way more important than standard RT. And if there is any doubt, then you should receive confirmation, hopefully in a separate round-about way without providing the answer to the controller (say again please?). If this requires non-standard lingo, then so be it.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 07:36
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Location: Brexitland
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Sounds like an everyday trip with Toss to me!
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 09:38
  #9 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 64
Posts: 679

Spot on. You have to learn to say everything twice in different phraseology without sounding condescending.

'You can say that again'...is a classic example that causes repetition but no understanding
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 12:22
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,167
I remember back in Kai Tak days Pan Am requesting taxy. "Clipper 8 twenty two four burning ready to roll....." The controller sent the Fire trucks straight away!!

Yep, their RT sounds cool in the states but can be misunderstood everywhere else!!

Your not in Kansas anymore Dorathy
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 13:42
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 995
I remember back in Kai Tak days Pan Am requesting taxy. "Clipper 8 twenty two four burning ready to roll....." The controller sent the Fire trucks straight away!!
Never in my whole life have I heard such garbage. You really do need to get over it, no-one speaks on the radio like that. And if they did, that is a long time ago.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 14:41
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 129
Nitpicker330...name says it all!
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 14:57
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Age: 69
Posts: 42
Unfortunately outfits like EK, CX, RBA, KAL, EY, etc afforded the opportunities for such insufferable miscreants to be launched well above their station. They created situations to lock themselves into positions of power in these fortresses. This all hark back to the days of colonialism of their forefathers. Same games, different names.
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 18:48
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 104

Lest we forget "The Speedbird 26" or "The Cathay 251"
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Old 7th Dec 2011, 19:20
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Here & there
Posts: 743
no-one speaks on the radio like that
Really?? You need to listen out more.
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 01:16
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Asia
Posts: 251
I had a relaxing round of golf with an Emirates mate during his command course. He was relaxed and enjoying the upgrade. He's file did not go to a Star chamber before and after his command, he did not have to do meaningless P.C.A's.

E.K. promoted him in seniority on his fleet, based on his overall performance. No major hick up's during RT/ PC's and line checks and you are good to go. And no " you have passed but wait for the Star chamber to sit on Friday"

They trust their trainers to shake your hand , and hand you your 4 bars.

So some might have a problem with the initial culture shock, but it does get better.

Until they fire 49 pilots "for no apparent reason" I must believe their system is better
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 02:00
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 995
tower replies: where is the engine now
Well that controller should be fired for being so dense. If you can't ascertain what the pilot meant with his statement, then you are not fit to control that aircraft.

That is the difference with the RT police. They are so busy with the language that they forget about the message. A personality trait in many terrible pilots, people who will go down in flames with a book on their lap. Most try to compensate for their incompetence by over-emphasizing the minutia.

I can't believe airline psych evaluations haven't evolved to weed out such personalities.
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 05:18
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Here & there
Posts: 743
Is it my imagination, or do some people take themselves far too seriously?
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 05:21
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 762
Point of Order

Until they fire 49 pilots "for no apparent reason" I must believe their system is better
Not being picky, but wasn't it actually "for no particular reason"?
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 12:20
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ceduna
Posts: 133

If you are going to put names on here that are identifiable, as you have just done, can we please have your real name. You are bordering on defamation, in fact it is defamation. Don't hide if you are going to name.
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