The Standard newspaper article... CX losing pilots
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Cyril,
What makes you think 6000 Indians with the bare minimum experience required for a CPL and no real world airline experience are worthy of working at any airline much less Cathay?
Many people (myself included) had to flight instruct, fly night freight, banner tow, pipeline patrol, and traffic watch just to get a foot in the door at an airline flying regional jets and turboprops. Your and other Indians sense of entitlement in regards to airline employment is insulting to those of us who spent years and thousands of hours doing the less than desirable flying before getting on at an airline of the caliber of Cathay Pacific.
What makes you think 6000 Indians with the bare minimum experience required for a CPL and no real world airline experience are worthy of working at any airline much less Cathay?
Many people (myself included) had to flight instruct, fly night freight, banner tow, pipeline patrol, and traffic watch just to get a foot in the door at an airline flying regional jets and turboprops. Your and other Indians sense of entitlement in regards to airline employment is insulting to those of us who spent years and thousands of hours doing the less than desirable flying before getting on at an airline of the caliber of Cathay Pacific.
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[QUOTE]Many people (myself included) had to flight instruct, fly night freight, banner tow, pipeline patrol, and traffic watch just to get a foot in the door at an airline flying regional jets and turboprops. Your and other Indians sense of entitlement in regards to airline employment is insulting to those of us who spent years and thousands of hours doing the less than desirable flying before getting on at an airline of the caliber of Cathay Pacific.
QUOTE]
Experience is fantastic...there is little downside to it, however to imply that someone who has not towed banners etc is any less worthy of being an airline pilot is equally insulting to those who rise up through the cadet ranks. some of the best and nicest captains I have flown with have been ex-cadets and to imply that somehow they are not worthy of respect because they have not done the undesirable flying is not particularly professional. Having flown 'undesireable' hours does not neccessarily make you a better pilot than a cadet.
QUOTE]
Experience is fantastic...there is little downside to it, however to imply that someone who has not towed banners etc is any less worthy of being an airline pilot is equally insulting to those who rise up through the cadet ranks. some of the best and nicest captains I have flown with have been ex-cadets and to imply that somehow they are not worthy of respect because they have not done the undesirable flying is not particularly professional. Having flown 'undesireable' hours does not neccessarily make you a better pilot than a cadet.
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Quote - 'What's the chance it's out of CX's hands. Maybe the government has said no more Expats . Look at ATC !'
I think that's exactly what's happened. Now CX will have to massage the HKPA until they get the numbers right - hopefully sooner rather than later for everyone's sake.
I can't help but wonder if we'd never allowed there to be such a difference between local cadets and expats terms and conditions in the first place the company wouldn't have been able to get away with doing what they've just done. There'd be no precedent for it.
I think that's exactly what's happened. Now CX will have to massage the HKPA until they get the numbers right - hopefully sooner rather than later for everyone's sake.
I can't help but wonder if we'd never allowed there to be such a difference between local cadets and expats terms and conditions in the first place the company wouldn't have been able to get away with doing what they've just done. There'd be no precedent for it.
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Geh065,
You are wrong on many levels. What is your background exactly? I'll tell you mine. I have been a flight school recruiter, CFI in more than one country, and a major airline captain.
You use the term "cadet" in a very broad manner. Not all flight training is created equal. There are true cadet programs that are very structured around a specific airlines SOP's, then there are FBO's that call themselves an academy. These academies (and I worked for one) do nothing more that train you to pass a canned check ride with an examiner which you pay personally (no conflict of interest there) with the minimal amount of experience necessary . You can NOT fail at these types of places. All you have to do is keep throwing more money at them. I have seen students with 150 hours and still not have solo'd "graduate" eventually from these so called academies. A serious cadet program run by an airline with strict performance standards would have kicked out someone who takes 150 hours to solo rather quickly. I know the school Cyril went to. I worked there. We had spoiled Indians showing up with their parents money goofing off for 1 to 2 years smoking pot going to strip clubs and massage parlors. Hardly the type of behavior one would expect for a serious would be professional. This type of conduct was the rule not the exception. There is no enforced completion time line at these schools.
I was also an instructor at an ab-initio school where strict uniform, attendance and performance standards were a must. Failure to make the grade meant being kicked out with no questions asked. There wasn't the possibility to buy your ratings like you could at a so called Academy.
No matter where you did your training nothing can replace experience. The flight training environment does not replicate the real world. Having a flight instructor sitting next to you for 250 hours or less spoon feeding you decisions is not the same as having your own life depend on yours. I'll work next to a new hire FO who flew night freight any day over a wet CPL holder. India kicked out highly experienced foreign FO's a few years ago so they could replace them with a bunch of wet CPL holding Indians who had not flown their Cessnas in over a year in most cases. Was this the safest move in your opinion?
In conclusion. I see Indians on this board constantly whining about the lack of jobs. There is almost always a lack of jobs for the inexperienced and desperate. What infuriates me is that with the thousands of highly experienced unemployed pilots in the world Indians with the least qualifications feel entitled to the best of jobs in the industry. Outside of India with it's protectionist hiring practices, you won't see many Indians with 250 hours flying jets. To the 6000 or so unemployed Indians out there. There are 10,000 or more enemployed pilots with thousands of hours more experience looking for work too. Get in line.
You are wrong on many levels. What is your background exactly? I'll tell you mine. I have been a flight school recruiter, CFI in more than one country, and a major airline captain.
You use the term "cadet" in a very broad manner. Not all flight training is created equal. There are true cadet programs that are very structured around a specific airlines SOP's, then there are FBO's that call themselves an academy. These academies (and I worked for one) do nothing more that train you to pass a canned check ride with an examiner which you pay personally (no conflict of interest there) with the minimal amount of experience necessary . You can NOT fail at these types of places. All you have to do is keep throwing more money at them. I have seen students with 150 hours and still not have solo'd "graduate" eventually from these so called academies. A serious cadet program run by an airline with strict performance standards would have kicked out someone who takes 150 hours to solo rather quickly. I know the school Cyril went to. I worked there. We had spoiled Indians showing up with their parents money goofing off for 1 to 2 years smoking pot going to strip clubs and massage parlors. Hardly the type of behavior one would expect for a serious would be professional. This type of conduct was the rule not the exception. There is no enforced completion time line at these schools.
I was also an instructor at an ab-initio school where strict uniform, attendance and performance standards were a must. Failure to make the grade meant being kicked out with no questions asked. There wasn't the possibility to buy your ratings like you could at a so called Academy.
No matter where you did your training nothing can replace experience. The flight training environment does not replicate the real world. Having a flight instructor sitting next to you for 250 hours or less spoon feeding you decisions is not the same as having your own life depend on yours. I'll work next to a new hire FO who flew night freight any day over a wet CPL holder. India kicked out highly experienced foreign FO's a few years ago so they could replace them with a bunch of wet CPL holding Indians who had not flown their Cessnas in over a year in most cases. Was this the safest move in your opinion?
In conclusion. I see Indians on this board constantly whining about the lack of jobs. There is almost always a lack of jobs for the inexperienced and desperate. What infuriates me is that with the thousands of highly experienced unemployed pilots in the world Indians with the least qualifications feel entitled to the best of jobs in the industry. Outside of India with it's protectionist hiring practices, you won't see many Indians with 250 hours flying jets. To the 6000 or so unemployed Indians out there. There are 10,000 or more enemployed pilots with thousands of hours more experience looking for work too. Get in line.
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Thanks Gearslinger. That is pretty much what I suspected. Your post was very informative. It really annoys me when cadet types act as if their academy time legitimizes them as pilots. I suppose it is a case of not knowing what you don't know. God save us if this becomes the future of CX.
Defenders of the cadet program point to its long history at CX. However, previous cadets were never needed to become Captains as there were always plenty of expats. With the cadet program being the only entry mechanism. These pilots will have to become captains. That will put downward pressure on the CX standard over time. I have no doubt. Congratulations RH and SK!
Defenders of the cadet program point to its long history at CX. However, previous cadets were never needed to become Captains as there were always plenty of expats. With the cadet program being the only entry mechanism. These pilots will have to become captains. That will put downward pressure on the CX standard over time. I have no doubt. Congratulations RH and SK!
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Its easy isnt it . You see someone from a particular part of the world and assume that everyone of them are the same type or kind that you might have seen or experienced .
I 'll agree to most of what emb145gearslinger said regarding my flying school before I arrived there . It was out of control . Thankfully a new management was appointed and kicked all those who were underperforming or violated the rules frequently .
But this was something common in other flying schools within the U.S . Indian students were always the bad apples .
Most of them never wanted to become pilots . They decided overnight to head to the U.S and become pilots because thats what their friends did . They werent there because liked flying . They just wanted to end up in the U.S , drink , smoke and party all the time . Most of them would not come to fly . I remember one particular guy just disappeared from the school for two weeks and then appeared all of a sudden out of nowhere . Needless to say he wasnt there in the school for long .
These guys even flunked their written exams
as well as stage checks and checkrides .
My earlier posts regarding my flying school can be found in my history .
I worked for all my ratings and finished them on time . Never flunk any of my exams and I dont think the FAA DPE who was a Senior US airways check captain would have passed me if he did not think I was qualified to pass the exams . For the record this particular captain had 50% pass rate at my flying school . So all those posts about no failures is completely false .
But all the above does not mean I am a hot shot pilot and that i know everything . I am not sure what gave you that idea . I have miles to go and lot to learn and experience .
This something that would happen if you learn to fly in India . But in the U.S where i leant to fly my total dual time was about 110 hours the rest of the hours where all PIC cross country flying , all the way to 250 without any instructors on board .
I dont argue with this fact and agree with the same .
If India did not do this all Indian Citizens with a CPL would sit on the ground unemployed forever as they do not have any other opportunities for to build experience .
I believe this is case with most countries even including the U.S . You have to be European to be employed in Europe , You have to be canadian to be employed in Canada , same goes for australia and south africa .
Even if I did have have 3000 hours PIC on a B747 i will never be allowed to be employed with a even a U.S regional airline let alone a major . They will probably hire someone with 500 tt piston and 100 multi piston .
Hows that for protectionism ?
What the Indian govt did is no different than what govt's of other countries did and that was to see to it the locals did not go unemployed .
The only place you wont see such practices happen is in countries that have a developed General Aviation economy . Eg: U.S , Canada , Australia
Because GA supplies experienced pilots airlines in these countries keep their minimums high . If they cant find experienced pilots naturally they will lower their requirements to the min or whatever is the highest available .
All other countries hire their locals with the highest experience available otherwise these locals will never get a chance in their whole life to become pilots
Ironically a lot of U.S regional airlines did hire 250tt and 50 multi straight out of flying school back in 2006 and 2007 .
Pinnacle airlines does that today for graduates of Western Michigan University's flight program . They walk into Pinnacle without even having to give an interview .
I am quite sure all those unemployed pilots in India will take any pilot job that comes their way . So when you cant find jobs at home you start looking outside . No different than any other unemployed pilot anywhere else in the world whether experienced or not .
The funny thing is all I asked was what the A scale and B scale pilot pay was at Cathay and the thread ended up bashing unemployed Indian Pilots because the guy who asked the question happened to be from India
I am sorry I did not mean to insult anyone with my posts . But its does get on ones nerves when people start painting you with same brush they paint everyone else
And no I am not applying at Cathay because I dont want to undercut someone else's pay . Sooner or later they are going to stuff the very same terms and conditions down the throats of Senior Cathay pilots on the old pay scale .
By then it will be too late to search for expat jobs as all the locals of these developing countries would have upgraded to captain by then .
I dont want to be the cause for downgrading your career
Good Day Gentlemen
I 'll agree to most of what emb145gearslinger said regarding my flying school before I arrived there . It was out of control . Thankfully a new management was appointed and kicked all those who were underperforming or violated the rules frequently .
But this was something common in other flying schools within the U.S . Indian students were always the bad apples .
Most of them never wanted to become pilots . They decided overnight to head to the U.S and become pilots because thats what their friends did . They werent there because liked flying . They just wanted to end up in the U.S , drink , smoke and party all the time . Most of them would not come to fly . I remember one particular guy just disappeared from the school for two weeks and then appeared all of a sudden out of nowhere . Needless to say he wasnt there in the school for long .
These guys even flunked their written exams
as well as stage checks and checkrides . My earlier posts regarding my flying school can be found in my history .
I worked for all my ratings and finished them on time . Never flunk any of my exams and I dont think the FAA DPE who was a Senior US airways check captain would have passed me if he did not think I was qualified to pass the exams . For the record this particular captain had 50% pass rate at my flying school . So all those posts about no failures is completely false .
But all the above does not mean I am a hot shot pilot and that i know everything . I am not sure what gave you that idea . I have miles to go and lot to learn and experience .
Having a flight instructor sitting next to you for 250 hours or less spoon feeding you decisions is not the same as having your own life depend on yours
No matter where you did your training nothing can replace experience. The flight training environment does not replicate the real world.
India kicked out highly experienced foreign FO's a few years ago so they could replace them with a bunch of wet CPL holding Indians who had not flown their Cessnas in over a year in most cases. Was this the safest move in your opinion?
I believe this is case with most countries even including the U.S . You have to be European to be employed in Europe , You have to be canadian to be employed in Canada , same goes for australia and south africa .
Even if I did have have 3000 hours PIC on a B747 i will never be allowed to be employed with a even a U.S regional airline let alone a major . They will probably hire someone with 500 tt piston and 100 multi piston .
Hows that for protectionism ?
What the Indian govt did is no different than what govt's of other countries did and that was to see to it the locals did not go unemployed .
Outside of India with it's protectionist hiring practices, you won't see many Indians with 250 hours flying jets
Because GA supplies experienced pilots airlines in these countries keep their minimums high . If they cant find experienced pilots naturally they will lower their requirements to the min or whatever is the highest available .
All other countries hire their locals with the highest experience available otherwise these locals will never get a chance in their whole life to become pilots
Ironically a lot of U.S regional airlines did hire 250tt and 50 multi straight out of flying school back in 2006 and 2007 .
Pinnacle airlines does that today for graduates of Western Michigan University's flight program . They walk into Pinnacle without even having to give an interview .
I am quite sure all those unemployed pilots in India will take any pilot job that comes their way . So when you cant find jobs at home you start looking outside . No different than any other unemployed pilot anywhere else in the world whether experienced or not .
The funny thing is all I asked was what the A scale and B scale pilot pay was at Cathay and the thread ended up bashing unemployed Indian Pilots because the guy who asked the question happened to be from India
I am sorry I did not mean to insult anyone with my posts . But its does get on ones nerves when people start painting you with same brush they paint everyone else
And no I am not applying at Cathay because I dont want to undercut someone else's pay . Sooner or later they are going to stuff the very same terms and conditions down the throats of Senior Cathay pilots on the old pay scale .
By then it will be too late to search for expat jobs as all the locals of these developing countries would have upgraded to captain by then .
I dont want to be the cause for downgrading your career
Good Day Gentlemen
Last edited by cyrilroy21; 27th Oct 2011 at 02:50.
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Fantastic reply Cyril,
You sound like you have a level head and good attitude - just the type of person we should be employing at CX. You are also doing yourself a favour by not taking this ridiculous new contract. It really is an insult to hire expats and then pay local terms.
I have no doubts that with your good attitide that you will find a good job in time. Perhaps when the CX mamagement see past their greed and offer a respectable package it will even be at CX. You will be welcome on my flightdeck anytime.
jpcx, you are a clown!
You sound like you have a level head and good attitude - just the type of person we should be employing at CX. You are also doing yourself a favour by not taking this ridiculous new contract. It really is an insult to hire expats and then pay local terms.
I have no doubts that with your good attitide that you will find a good job in time. Perhaps when the CX mamagement see past their greed and offer a respectable package it will even be at CX. You will be welcome on my flightdeck anytime.
jpcx, you are a clown!
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That was quite a mature and well balanced response Cyril. Good on you. To answer your question about A & B scales. A scale basically doesn't exist anymore and refers to the package that guys had almost a decade ago. B scales is what happened when CX management attacked the A scale package and is much reduced. Most guys are on B scales. C scale is basically B scale minus the expat housing allowance. It is what everyone is basically warning you about.
Good luck with whatever you do.
Good luck with whatever you do.
From this morning's Standard:
Tardiness??
Sir, being ex-military myself how dare you compare being an airline pilot to being in the military. 
My heart bleeds for you all.
"If the scheduling department was more efficient, there should be little to no utilization of home reserve crew members."
He said this inefficiency has led to a more disgruntled flight crew.
Another pilot said that while he hasn't heard of massive resignations recently, Cathay is running short of pilots.
Yet another claimed that many pilots in the United States and Britain are planning to move to Hong Kong to work for Cathay Pacific, as some airlines in the two countries are suffering.
He added that many are reportedly willing to accept lower salaries just to secure jobs. But none of them have made an application yet, he said.
Cathay denies claims of shortage in cockpits
Phila Siu
Thursday, October 27, 2011
Cathay Pacific Airways yesterday dismissed claims of a pilot shortage, saying its ongoing recruitment drive is in line with its expansion plans.
A spokeswoman said 112 pilots are expected to join this year, while 43 have resigned, retired or leaving for other reasons.
This leaves a net growth of 69 pilots - excluding the 44 trainees who have become full-fledged pilots over the last three months.
However, this is still a far cry from the 250 pilots that chairman Christopher Pratt has said he hopes to hire this year.
The airline currently employs about 2,500 pilots. The spokeswoman said that, when looking into the airline's recruitment progress, the number of cadet pilots under training should also be taken into consideration.
She said there are 143 cadet pilots who will be joining Cathay after completing their training, which takes 10 to 60 weeks, depending on ability and performance.
The recruitment drive comes amid growing complaints from pilots who claim they are being asked to work excessive hours. According to a captain, pilots are assigned "field reserve" days, in which they have to show up at work ready to replace a colleague who cannot fly due to sickness, tardiness
Phila Siu
Thursday, October 27, 2011
Cathay Pacific Airways yesterday dismissed claims of a pilot shortage, saying its ongoing recruitment drive is in line with its expansion plans.
A spokeswoman said 112 pilots are expected to join this year, while 43 have resigned, retired or leaving for other reasons.
This leaves a net growth of 69 pilots - excluding the 44 trainees who have become full-fledged pilots over the last three months.
However, this is still a far cry from the 250 pilots that chairman Christopher Pratt has said he hopes to hire this year.
The airline currently employs about 2,500 pilots. The spokeswoman said that, when looking into the airline's recruitment progress, the number of cadet pilots under training should also be taken into consideration.
She said there are 143 cadet pilots who will be joining Cathay after completing their training, which takes 10 to 60 weeks, depending on ability and performance.
The recruitment drive comes amid growing complaints from pilots who claim they are being asked to work excessive hours. According to a captain, pilots are assigned "field reserve" days, in which they have to show up at work ready to replace a colleague who cannot fly due to sickness, tardiness
or other reasons.
There are also "home reserve" days when pilots are allowed to do their own thing, but should be prepared to answer a call to work when the "field reserve" pilots have been used up.
The captain told The Standard there have been complaints that "home reserve" pilots are being used excessively. "It is like being a military pilot, where you can be called to fly on a moment's notice, leaving you with little personal time to relax and not think of work," he said.
There are also "home reserve" days when pilots are allowed to do their own thing, but should be prepared to answer a call to work when the "field reserve" pilots have been used up.
The captain told The Standard there have been complaints that "home reserve" pilots are being used excessively. "It is like being a military pilot, where you can be called to fly on a moment's notice, leaving you with little personal time to relax and not think of work," he said.
My heart bleeds for you all.
"If the scheduling department was more efficient, there should be little to no utilization of home reserve crew members."
He said this inefficiency has led to a more disgruntled flight crew.
Another pilot said that while he hasn't heard of massive resignations recently, Cathay is running short of pilots.
Yet another claimed that many pilots in the United States and Britain are planning to move to Hong Kong to work for Cathay Pacific, as some airlines in the two countries are suffering.
He added that many are reportedly willing to accept lower salaries just to secure jobs. But none of them have made an application yet, he said.
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As usual, The Standard is grasping at straws in its quest to becoming a real newspaper. Sounds like they found 4 guys at a bar in Wanchai and turned it into 'news'. Everyones leaving, everyones coming, there will be no bases, everyone is going to be on a base....
Yesterdays rumours into this mornings news. Great journalism. How about they break down those numbers that those CX spin doctors gave them, look at the real per month growth and write something worth reading for a change.
Yesterdays rumours into this mornings news. Great journalism. How about they break down those numbers that those CX spin doctors gave them, look at the real per month growth and write something worth reading for a change.
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I'll give you the only number that matters:
Since the ASL/KA/Oasis integration in 2008, we have had approximately 2500 pilots. Take a look, we still have approximately 2500 pilots. You can get very fancy with the math, but that does not look like growth no matter how you slice it.
Since the ASL/KA/Oasis integration in 2008, we have had approximately 2500 pilots. Take a look, we still have approximately 2500 pilots. You can get very fancy with the math, but that does not look like growth no matter how you slice it.
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I'm not disputing the fact we are going backwards. Every time they beg me to work a G day that is apparent. But...it would be nice to have something written in the general media that is a bit more intelligently written for a change. It actually demeans the general thrust of the article when you start relying on what 'a guy' said. It makes it easy for CX to shoot it down with a few numbers here and there.
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well...according to the GMA everything seems to be in order...
Cathay's original comment to the paper was that they "can't confirm or deny", standard PR bull****t to cover something up.
The real story should be that at a time where most people in the industry are concerned about the growing lack of pilots that can actually "fly", Cathay is out recruiting the bottom of the barrel 0 flight time talent from all over the world.
Unfortunately, nobody really "manages" this place any more, they just nickel and dime it to death. I really hope I'm not on-board when we have our Colgan or Air France moment.
