useless callouts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 506
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From: Where You Aren't
Despite the training manager stating, in writing, that verbalizing
07R identified
final clear
departure clear
TCAS clear
I have weather
is NOT required, PEOPLE STILL DO IT!!!! BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA
SHUT UP AND FLY!
07R identified
final clear
departure clear
TCAS clear
I have weather
is NOT required, PEOPLE STILL DO IT!!!! BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA
SHUT UP AND FLY!
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 601
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From: Hong Kong
Point of order....
Oval, this thread is entitled "useless callouts" not "unnecessary callouts". There is a distinct difference, the first being aimed at the system and the second at the individual. The second issue could be addressed by taking a bit of time to point out to "offenders" that some things need to be confirmed but that the confirmation doesn't need to be verbalised.
STP
STP
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,103
Likes: 5
From: Chabanais, France
During a line check once a TC thought my situational awareness was lacking because on 2 consecutive sectors I didn't say;" TD identified". The WX was CAVOK and unusually sunny in HK.
I'll leave at that...........
I'll leave at that...........
1. Had you cancelled IFR and gone VFR? (It was a Line Check, right?).
2. Do you advocate one set of call-outs on a nice sunny day and another set of call-outs for IMC? (Cat II & III excluded).
3. Isn't it easier to stick to one set throughout, less to remember?
Pedant and Devil's Advocate mode OFF.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 52
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From: N. America
Air Profit said: I would rather it the 'CX way' than my last major airline, where upon reaching the transition alt the PF invariably said '992 for me and you'.... nuff said.
Seriously? You think the 5 minute conversation we're supposed to have is better than a simple crosscheck? (never mind the fact that we're both looking at data from the same ADC source on most A/C). Example: a departure I had a few weeks ago had 3.....count 'em 3.... altimiter changes between preflight and taxi. After all the required verbal diarrhea we came damn near close to having to block in again for additional fuel. God forbid that happens upon arrival in the terminal area....
On the flip side, when was the last time anyone mentioned an altimiter check or GNE check before coast out? Right, never. Ah, what do those ICAO folks know anyway
Seriously? You think the 5 minute conversation we're supposed to have is better than a simple crosscheck? (never mind the fact that we're both looking at data from the same ADC source on most A/C). Example: a departure I had a few weeks ago had 3.....count 'em 3.... altimiter changes between preflight and taxi. After all the required verbal diarrhea we came damn near close to having to block in again for additional fuel. God forbid that happens upon arrival in the terminal area....
On the flip side, when was the last time anyone mentioned an altimiter check or GNE check before coast out? Right, never. Ah, what do those ICAO folks know anyway
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 506
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From: Where You Aren't
Why don't we just ask a question if there is a doubt? Any of CX's fleet can be flown with just one pilot, no problem, so the other guy is just there to ask a question when something doesn't look right. If everything looks right, keep your trap shut. Too much chatter introduces more problems than it supposedly solves. How on Earth do single-pilot aircraft manage to fly around, day-to-day, with a pretty good safety record, while multi-pilot aircraft (AF447 for example or the CX flight which did a go-around in HKG while NOT on autopilot while four pilots watched it almost stall as it flew itself from 500 feet to over 6000 feet over Lantau Island) have lots of incidents too?
Strobes on? Who doesn't know that we normally turn on the strobes (and we should actually turn on all exterior lights, INCLUDING wing lights (oh, who has ever seen THEM turned on?) while crossing a runway?
Finished with the forward lights? What other f'in lights are you possibly finished with????
Fully ready? No, only partially. I'll call you back when fully ready.
On finals? Which one? Both?
Ugh.
Strobes on? Who doesn't know that we normally turn on the strobes (and we should actually turn on all exterior lights, INCLUDING wing lights (oh, who has ever seen THEM turned on?) while crossing a runway?
Finished with the forward lights? What other f'in lights are you possibly finished with????
Fully ready? No, only partially. I'll call you back when fully ready.
On finals? Which one? Both?
Ugh.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 95
Likes: 19
From: On a few nerves apparently
WTFO?! Don't you people know a windup post when you see one?! The ****** with the first post is obviously sitting back having a laugh at all the fussing & fighting. The CP mentioned in his newsletter how they're getting rid of a whole bunch of these calls days before this discussion was started! All you bitchers are a little late to the game, aren't you? Yes this is an inbred operation stuck in it's own twilight zone and light years behind the US or a few Euro airlines when it comes to up to date effective procedures/standard callouts etc..., is that news to you?! Why complain AFTER they announce they're improving? Before the announcement this all would've been valid, days afterwards... it's a windup!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 149
Likes: 14
From: Melbourne, Australia
"CHECK"? "CHECK"? "CHECK"?
Good grief, you Cathay blokes have got it ALL WRONG. What a bunch of unprofessional, slovenly pilots you blokes all are. Standards really are slipping up there, aren't they?!
Down here in Qantas it is "CHECKED!"
Good grief, you Cathay blokes have got it ALL WRONG. What a bunch of unprofessional, slovenly pilots you blokes all are. Standards really are slipping up there, aren't they?!
Down here in Qantas it is "CHECKED!"
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,424
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From: Smogsville
It was typical of CX, the 747 has two rudders so "rudders" seemed normal but if you then converted to the bus you were quickly picked up on it, vv when returning to the 74.
I happened to be in the Airbus office when they were discussing 'flap' & 'flaps'
The deciding factor was to look at a photo of the Airbus cockpit hanging on the wall and see it said flaps, therefore it was 'flaps' which became company standard, (Boeing says flap), typical micromanagement with no common sense behind their decisions.
At least its slowly changing, however there are still guys enforcing crap that has been dropped.
It'll all change back, it always does.
"positive rate" I think this'll be the 4th time it's changed.
I happened to be in the Airbus office when they were discussing 'flap' & 'flaps'
The deciding factor was to look at a photo of the Airbus cockpit hanging on the wall and see it said flaps, therefore it was 'flaps' which became company standard, (Boeing says flap), typical micromanagement with no common sense behind their decisions.
At least its slowly changing, however there are still guys enforcing crap that has been dropped.
It'll all change back, it always does.
"positive rate" I think this'll be the 4th time it's changed.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
Lowest Common Denominators
Despite our frustrations, bottom line is we have chosen to fly for Cathay as, for now, it suits our life and/or income needs. Is it really so onerous for the more experienced amongst us to have to play the threat/strategy game,, to have to think in the descent, "Err, what's next, aah - getting lower/closer" - (just two examples of excess verbiage quoted in this thread).
"We" may have built up the airmanship to not need a mandatory framework of preparatory and ongoing actions. "We" could therefore give license for "just do it" briefs or adopt the "be there and cope" outlook we may miss from previous lives. But take a non standard day with a few ac glitches and your wife on board, take a young stud from an ego driven culture and another perhaps from Hong Kong where thinking outside of the box is actively discouraged in schools, who believes (and it's no fault of his own) in his bones that he should only do as taught/in the FCOM. Who in that crew will elect to consider the stuff that "We" would now have the experience to just know needed considering?
Drives me mental too guys but ya know....so what? One day a few years ago, even "We" might have been the Lowest Common Denominators
"We" may have built up the airmanship to not need a mandatory framework of preparatory and ongoing actions. "We" could therefore give license for "just do it" briefs or adopt the "be there and cope" outlook we may miss from previous lives. But take a non standard day with a few ac glitches and your wife on board, take a young stud from an ego driven culture and another perhaps from Hong Kong where thinking outside of the box is actively discouraged in schools, who believes (and it's no fault of his own) in his bones that he should only do as taught/in the FCOM. Who in that crew will elect to consider the stuff that "We" would now have the experience to just know needed considering?
Drives me mental too guys but ya know....so what? One day a few years ago, even "We" might have been the Lowest Common Denominators
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 95
Likes: 19
From: On a few nerves apparently
Wrait,
Sorry posting real fast and i guess it didn't come out right. No not ALL US airlines are up to speed as they should. in fact, one large major US airline is the industry leader in violations and FAA fines year after year. The reason i said some Euro airlines is some of the eastern Euro ones have serious problems. BA, LH, KLM etc. are as up to speed as any and pretty impressive as far as i know. And as for your anal comment... right back at you chap.
Sorry posting real fast and i guess it didn't come out right. No not ALL US airlines are up to speed as they should. in fact, one large major US airline is the industry leader in violations and FAA fines year after year. The reason i said some Euro airlines is some of the eastern Euro ones have serious problems. BA, LH, KLM etc. are as up to speed as any and pretty impressive as far as i know. And as for your anal comment... right back at you chap.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: same place
Can't believe you all forgot the classic Airbus routine of putting the landing lights on at top of drop, classic! What's wrong with doing the "10 checks" like every other airline, 10,000 feet, landing lights off/on.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: Asia
Industry standard.
Industry standard: " Cleared for take Off" the PM turn the landing lights on as confirmation of take off clearance, all crew is aware of the clearance and surrounding traffic know you are commencing the roll.
I will never cross a runway , unless I double check with ATC,, if the aircraft lined up have all his lights on, as I only know of one airline that enter the runway with all lights on.
CX's biggest problem is there is no cross pollination. CX management have only ever known their own procedure, and remember they invented flying.
I will never cross a runway , unless I double check with ATC,, if the aircraft lined up have all his lights on, as I only know of one airline that enter the runway with all lights on.
CX's biggest problem is there is no cross pollination. CX management have only ever known their own procedure, and remember they invented flying.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 42
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From: Paradise
Because.......that's the way we used to do it on the Tristar!
At least these days you don't, prior to ToD, have to state the readouts of all your primary flight instruments incl. ADI ("two-and-a-half degree nose up, wings level"). That on an aeroplane with an instrument comparator and a thingy monitoring the comparator too!
Unnecessary callouts..it has been thus for 30+ yrs.