A sign of the times
Seems we cracked the "gorilla" yesterday. 1,003 apparently.
No press release yet 'caus the Management and PR section are enjoying their public holidays while the controllers were all rostered for extra shifts.
Looking forward to the end of year bonus.
No press release yet 'caus the Management and PR section are enjoying their public holidays while the controllers were all rostered for extra shifts.
Looking forward to the end of year bonus.
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Harman,
If I recall correctly, the current missed approach for 07L goes north of the high terrain near Lion Rock. Pretty sure we could replicate that missed approach procedure for the new runway since there would not be simultaneous approaches to the new 07L and 07C as they would be quite close together.
Thanks for leaning forward though...
If I recall correctly, the current missed approach for 07L goes north of the high terrain near Lion Rock. Pretty sure we could replicate that missed approach procedure for the new runway since there would not be simultaneous approaches to the new 07L and 07C as they would be quite close together.
Thanks for leaning forward though...
Join Date: May 2002
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So the "turn left 60 degrees...turn right 120 degrees...turn left 60 degrees...minimum speed...descend now....max rate of climb" stuff doesn't count?
Personally, I think HKATC do a fine job, given the mess that they're handed from our brethren North of the border.
What would work (and needs to be done here) is a consolidation of all local control zones into a single area control (like SoCal) with handoff to the local control only when in their CTA.
Oh, and ditch that stupid "flow control" machine that's screwing things up. Total waste of money.
Personally, I think HKATC do a fine job, given the mess that they're handed from our brethren North of the border.
What would work (and needs to be done here) is a consolidation of all local control zones into a single area control (like SoCal) with handoff to the local control only when in their CTA.
Oh, and ditch that stupid "flow control" machine that's screwing things up. Total waste of money.
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Well we seem to be getting given the procedural approach a lot more lately- even in the middle of the day. Mostly by the younger sounding controllers. So maybe they're training them better to do that. Got cleared the other day near guava when there were at least number 4 and ended up perfectly behind the preceding one. Got cleared to land at about half a mile.
Get the impression they use the holds to the west and south better but we still get the Cpt Underpants treatment from the East. Whats up there? Different guys/girls doing it?
I dunno about the flow control machine. I spoke to one guy who thought it was quite good if used correctly. Swings and roundabouts I guess.
All in all good service from HKATC.
Get the impression they use the holds to the west and south better but we still get the Cpt Underpants treatment from the East. Whats up there? Different guys/girls doing it?
I dunno about the flow control machine. I spoke to one guy who thought it was quite good if used correctly. Swings and roundabouts I guess.
All in all good service from HKATC.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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So the "turn left 60 degrees...turn right 120 degrees...turn left 60 degrees...minimum speed...descend now....max rate of climb" stuff doesn't count?
An orbit = 4minutes delay. Not useful if you only need a 1/2/3 minute delay.
Once around the hold = 6 minutes delay. See above and interpolate.
Minimum speed/descend now = sometimes avoids some of the above.
Max rate of climb doesn't really apply unless you don't adhere to the above and end up too close behind the chap in front. Then, you get to experience the above all over again and they end up with 1,004 movements.
If you haven't done already, try and pay a visit to the Centre and see the "black arts" being performed. The transformation of chaos into order is something to behold even using "that stupid flow control machine". Mind you, the "Luddites" used to say something similar about radar, when I were a lad!
On the beach
P.S. Well done lads and lasses.
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Apparently in the US the FAA has approved ATC famil flights again since 9/11.
Perhaps we should be doing more of this in HK so we can get a clearer idea of each others procedures.
Perhaps we should be doing more of this in HK so we can get a clearer idea of each others procedures.
I would fully support regular jump seat rides for Hong Kong ATCO's; regional turnaround flights would be ideal; in fact, I am surprised that it is not a requirement for them. It would be an opportunity for them to experience the result of their labours and for pilots to meet them and maybe ask a question or two in the cruise.
But it probably says 'can-not' on page XYZ of some manual somewhere.
But it probably says 'can-not' on page XYZ of some manual somewhere.
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Ah yes, the PLA, air forces throughout the world operate in close proximity to civil aerodromes without a fraction of the delays these clowns cause.
As for the flow control programme, a senior ATC trainer told me it was designed for an airport with 2 entry points ( does that sound like HK ??? ) , some bright spark in management is still patting himself on the back for that cock up. Also if you are wondering why you have to fly away from the airport, on arrival, at cruise speed instead of min clean, if you slow down this brilliant programme re-sequences you which causes some degree of grief.
Whilst a good deal of HKs problems can be blamed on the northerners, is it the mainlands fault we do S turns through the arrival, get told " max speed " to then be told " 210 kts " by the next sector ? Who is responsible for the bright idea of arrivals and departures flying over TD, departing a/c being held down for 10-20 miles, arriving a/c flying level at FL110 for xx miles then becoming high on profile.
The whole airspace thing around here is a horses ar5e and as traffic increases it can only get worse.
Oops, nearly forgot. If some of the " professionals " that operate into HK would do the speed they are told, and not be at 180Kts at 30 miles, I am sure HK ATCs job would be easier.
As for the flow control programme, a senior ATC trainer told me it was designed for an airport with 2 entry points ( does that sound like HK ??? ) , some bright spark in management is still patting himself on the back for that cock up. Also if you are wondering why you have to fly away from the airport, on arrival, at cruise speed instead of min clean, if you slow down this brilliant programme re-sequences you which causes some degree of grief.
Whilst a good deal of HKs problems can be blamed on the northerners, is it the mainlands fault we do S turns through the arrival, get told " max speed " to then be told " 210 kts " by the next sector ? Who is responsible for the bright idea of arrivals and departures flying over TD, departing a/c being held down for 10-20 miles, arriving a/c flying level at FL110 for xx miles then becoming high on profile.
The whole airspace thing around here is a horses ar5e and as traffic increases it can only get worse.
Oops, nearly forgot. If some of the " professionals " that operate into HK would do the speed they are told, and not be at 180Kts at 30 miles, I am sure HK ATCs job would be easier.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I think the "S" turns do often happen in the east sector. The east sector is the busiest sector within HK airspace. Because of that, traffic from the east normally has priority over traffic from other directions. If the downstream sector requires 10 or 15 miles spacing, the radar controller has to sequence the traffic based on the required spacing right after you passed ELATO or DOTMI. Speed control and vectoring are the methods to achieve the spacing. To turn you back to the south after a northerly heading is to keep you within HK airspace and save you from being intercepted by the J10! Beyond 15 miles north of Airway A1 will be Guangzhou airspace. So why not turn to the south? Don't forget about the ENVAR departures.
Traffic from DOTMI and ELATO will merge at MAGOG. If 2 traffic dead hit at MAGOG, how can we achieve the spacing without vectoring either one.
10 to 15 miles spacing does not warrant holding or orbit. Of course, if the downstream sector requires extra spacing or there are too many, we hold.
The "S" turn seldom happens in the south or west sectors because the airspace is larger and less restrictive. Usually some direct tracks or speed control will achieve the spacing.
If you are number one in sequence, normally you will be asked to fly fast, say 310 knots IAS in order to achieve the spacing "within" that sector. After changing over to the next sector, you will be asked to reduce speed because you will be merged with other traffic from other directions!
TD is the crossing point of departing traffic and arriving traffic from the east during RWY 07 is in use. That's why you may have to level off at 9000 feet or FL110.
HKATC not only has to sequence the traffic landing VHHH, but we also have to sequence the traffic landing VMMC, ZGGG and ZGSZ, not to mention to flow control required by ZGGG and ZGSZ.
Have a good day.
Traffic from DOTMI and ELATO will merge at MAGOG. If 2 traffic dead hit at MAGOG, how can we achieve the spacing without vectoring either one.
10 to 15 miles spacing does not warrant holding or orbit. Of course, if the downstream sector requires extra spacing or there are too many, we hold.
The "S" turn seldom happens in the south or west sectors because the airspace is larger and less restrictive. Usually some direct tracks or speed control will achieve the spacing.
If you are number one in sequence, normally you will be asked to fly fast, say 310 knots IAS in order to achieve the spacing "within" that sector. After changing over to the next sector, you will be asked to reduce speed because you will be merged with other traffic from other directions!
TD is the crossing point of departing traffic and arriving traffic from the east during RWY 07 is in use. That's why you may have to level off at 9000 feet or FL110.
HKATC not only has to sequence the traffic landing VHHH, but we also have to sequence the traffic landing VMMC, ZGGG and ZGSZ, not to mention to flow control required by ZGGG and ZGSZ.
Have a good day.
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The max speed then slow down thing is to close the gap or create a gap for optimal spacing.
Yet I still hear people saying "there speed control is so erratic they don't know what they're doing".
Bring back ATC rides, I know I'd like to ask a few things.
Yet I still hear people saying "there speed control is so erratic they don't know what they're doing".
Bring back ATC rides, I know I'd like to ask a few things.
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Familiarization Flight
The familiarization flight programme has been in place all the time. I have been to several times and enjoyed very much each time.
Perhaps the business of the local carriers is so well that they are quite reluctant to spare a seat to a non-revenue passenger.
We have difficulty to get a FAM FLT ticket in recent years. The best is a jump seat ticket.
To some people, it was quite "uncomfortable" sitting on the jump seat for the whole trip. Some even joked that they had to ask for the Captain's permission to leave the cockpit for toilet.
Do you like a stranger sitting in the cockpit staring at you and trying to find conversation during the whole trip?
What do you think?
Perhaps the business of the local carriers is so well that they are quite reluctant to spare a seat to a non-revenue passenger.
We have difficulty to get a FAM FLT ticket in recent years. The best is a jump seat ticket.
To some people, it was quite "uncomfortable" sitting on the jump seat for the whole trip. Some even joked that they had to ask for the Captain's permission to leave the cockpit for toilet.
Do you like a stranger sitting in the cockpit staring at you and trying to find conversation during the whole trip?
What do you think?
Last edited by AGNES; 25th Apr 2011 at 04:18.
I don't see any problem; a Taipei turnaround is about 1 hr 30 minutes each way and would be an ideal flight to observe. Airline staff sit on the jump seat to get where they are going all the time; the longest I've had is a 'stranger' on the jump seat from Hong Kong to Toronto non stop!
The only requirement to visit the toilet is that the seat belt signs are off and outside the door is checked. And if you think that the jump seat is uncomfortable, it is not that different to the pilots' seats. Spare a thought for us on arrivals off long haul flights!
I personally would welcome any HKG ATCO in the cockpit any time; particularly during summer! I would also have thought that the local airline managements would bend over backwards to look after HKG controllers and get them on flights. Having an efficient and pleasant relationship with ATC would be of great benefit to the local companies; but what would I know? I'm just a pilot.
The only requirement to visit the toilet is that the seat belt signs are off and outside the door is checked. And if you think that the jump seat is uncomfortable, it is not that different to the pilots' seats. Spare a thought for us on arrivals off long haul flights!
I personally would welcome any HKG ATCO in the cockpit any time; particularly during summer! I would also have thought that the local airline managements would bend over backwards to look after HKG controllers and get them on flights. Having an efficient and pleasant relationship with ATC would be of great benefit to the local companies; but what would I know? I'm just a pilot.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 25th Apr 2011 at 08:42.
