Potential cargo capacity problems
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We could have had:
A and B: 200 B-scale capt. on 100% the money
C: 100 B-scale F/O
The ones taking a freighter command have effectively dragged the conditions down for the rest of the F/O's senior to them.
A and B: 200 B-scale capt. on 100% the money
C: 100 B-scale F/O
The ones taking a freighter command have effectively dragged the conditions down for the rest of the F/O's senior to them.
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Dear Fly+numerous & T.M.,
Again I ask you to enlighten me on how someone taking a frtr command degraded in any way YOUR contract.
Please cease with the encrypted notes and actually show us where YOUR contract was thus infringed upon, not the contracts of subsequent FOs.
Also, note well Freight Dog+'s remarks about STOPPING any new pay scales. If you were here, why didn't you protest about early freight commands (other than the occasional rant in the gay bar)? I don't recall seeing or hearing of any AOA or other guidance on non-acceptance.
PS: take it easy boys, this is not a critical issue and still has nothing to do with the original post/thread as I mentioned earlier.
Again I ask you to enlighten me on how someone taking a frtr command degraded in any way YOUR contract.
Please cease with the encrypted notes and actually show us where YOUR contract was thus infringed upon, not the contracts of subsequent FOs.
Also, note well Freight Dog+'s remarks about STOPPING any new pay scales. If you were here, why didn't you protest about early freight commands (other than the occasional rant in the gay bar)? I don't recall seeing or hearing of any AOA or other guidance on non-acceptance.
PS: take it easy boys, this is not a critical issue and still has nothing to do with the original post/thread as I mentioned earlier.
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Of course you can blame the guys who took the commands out of seniority. I can and I do. They did nothing to improve their own or anybody elses situation. Yes they were earning more than an F/O but they were now Captains. Their salary compared to F/O was now irrelevant.
These people have no regard for seniority, when it suits them of course, yet are often the most vocal when it comes to violation of COS. Fark off I say.
How about the early freighter Captain who operated into Dubai and then refused to PX on the freighter back to HKG? Really??? Violation of his COS he said! What a tosser!!
Early freighter commands were agreed by the AOA, so what, so were G-Day call out fees but there are plenty of out-of-seniority freighter Captains who don't agree with guys doing that.
These people have no regard for seniority, when it suits them of course, yet are often the most vocal when it comes to violation of COS. Fark off I say.
How about the early freighter Captain who operated into Dubai and then refused to PX on the freighter back to HKG? Really??? Violation of his COS he said! What a tosser!!
Early freighter commands were agreed by the AOA, so what, so were G-Day call out fees but there are plenty of out-of-seniority freighter Captains who don't agree with guys doing that.
Last edited by The Messiah; 4th Sep 2010 at 03:07.
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Silberfuchs
Whilst I normally enjoy your posts I shall call "BS" on your most recent post.
In the mid to late 90's the company was most determined to establish a separate Freighter cadre and pay them accordingly. Directly resultant of the dispute of 1999, it was agreed that the Freighter slots would be "integrated" into the mainline operation, however on Freighter pay. The only alternative offered by the company was that the Freighter operation would have remained crewed by ASL and remain wholly separate from the mainline crewing operation. The company never, but never, put the option to the AOA of sacking all the ASL pilots and returning the crewing of the Freighters to "mainline" crews only.
If you somehow construe that to mean the AOA started "early freighter commands" and that the AOA (not the company) laid down this career path you have an odd view of history and I suggest you consider this;
"Would we as pilot group now be better off if the Freighters had remained crewed by pilots employed by a company, or companies, other than CX/Veta, with not only separate contracts, but separate recruiting, base structures, C&T and indeed promotion structures?"
In the mid to late 90's the company was most determined to establish a separate Freighter cadre and pay them accordingly. Directly resultant of the dispute of 1999, it was agreed that the Freighter slots would be "integrated" into the mainline operation, however on Freighter pay. The only alternative offered by the company was that the Freighter operation would have remained crewed by ASL and remain wholly separate from the mainline crewing operation. The company never, but never, put the option to the AOA of sacking all the ASL pilots and returning the crewing of the Freighters to "mainline" crews only.
If you somehow construe that to mean the AOA started "early freighter commands" and that the AOA (not the company) laid down this career path you have an odd view of history and I suggest you consider this;
"Would we as pilot group now be better off if the Freighters had remained crewed by pilots employed by a company, or companies, other than CX/Veta, with not only separate contracts, but separate recruiting, base structures, C&T and indeed promotion structures?"
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I believe there will be no more "Freighter Commands", ie. Commands on reduced conditions of service.
This is a win for us....one of the few over the last decade.
What happens if the company offers CN bases in freighter only ports is interesting however....
This is a win for us....one of the few over the last decade.
What happens if the company offers CN bases in freighter only ports is interesting however....
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One more time
Of course you can blame the guys who took the commands out of seniority. I can and I do.
Once more, the guys who exercised that privilege did nothing worse than you did by accepting B-scale. You improved your own situation by accepting the job in CX at inferior conditions to those enjoyed by your predecessors, did you not?
Moreover, it is disingenuous to say freighter commands taken by CX F/Os were "out of seniority", as these commands were offered to everyone on the CX seniority list (down to the last S/O), and awarded to those who raised their hand (and managed to jump through the hoops) in seniority order.
If you were too lazy/short-sighted (or afraid of the classic) to go for it when it was offered, too bad for you, don't harass those who did. The opportuntiy was offered to you too. Get over it.
Now, the question is: are we going to let the company divide and conquer us once more by offering new pilots no housing?
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Accepting a job from an entirely different world is hardly the same as accepting a reduction in your conditions once you are in it, in effect accepting less pay than the other guys doing exactly the same job. As far as I'm concerned you can't pick and choose which COS violations are ok and which ones aren't, it's all or nothing.
Further if freighter commands were so right why are they now finished? The evidence does not support your attempts to justify the queue jumpers actions.
Further if freighter commands were so right why are they now finished? The evidence does not support your attempts to justify the queue jumpers actions.
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and not going for a freighter command is not being too lazy or too short sighted.....it is just an appreciation of what a ****e job it is. Get over it? The whining freigher captains who think they should be on B scales or treated specially for taking the job in the first place could well HTFU, get over it and enjoy the job they chose to take....for many a year to come!
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First (AGAIN), what does this "discussion" on frtr commands have to do with this thread? T.M., you have not addressed the reason you started this in a thread that has nothing to do with frtr captains.
Second, whining frtr cpts? Where? Who? All I see, as evidenced by your post Treboryelk, are whining FOs. Why is being a Frtr Cpt a "****e job"? Are, therefore, the FOs who fly both pax and frtrs also working a "****e job"?
Third, T.M., enlighten me (please), why someone should accept pxing on the freighter when there is a passenger flight going to the same destination? I honestly find it hard to believe that you care about this and that you lose sleep over it.
Second, whining frtr cpts? Where? Who? All I see, as evidenced by your post Treboryelk, are whining FOs. Why is being a Frtr Cpt a "****e job"? Are, therefore, the FOs who fly both pax and frtrs also working a "****e job"?
Third, T.M., enlighten me (please), why someone should accept pxing on the freighter when there is a passenger flight going to the same destination? I honestly find it hard to believe that you care about this and that you lose sleep over it.
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Frtr cpts with HKG base were/are ex-Oasis direct entry etc. They do have a housing allowance albeit at a reduce rate. Here I would agree with you that allowing this contract may have adverse affects on our future COS. As I agree we shouldn't allow any further degradation of existing COS and allowances.
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So many sour grapes... I know, let's make some whine!
Fly12345 I will grant you that guys volunteering for freight CN in HK with no housing are a different story, but I suspect most are not volunteers, rather guys who had left for Oasis and were then offered a take-it-or-leave-it by the company (kick'em when they're down). Freighter captains on a base, though, different story: makes perfect sense if you don't want to come to HKG.
Trebor: personally I haven't heard a freighter captain complain yet... actually over the last couple of years I think they have had the best rosters in the airline. As Buckaroo says, it sounds like it's you and a few whiney F/Os who didn't take the opportunity THAT YOU HAD TOO who need a little hardening...
And Messiah, once again they are making MORE money than they were previously (F-scale captain is more than B-scale F/O, at least on a base), just as you started making more money than you were in your previous job when you accepted B-scale (but no, no, that's different, of course you would never accept lower conditions than other people for doing the same job -um, er- except you plainly did.)
Matter of fact in hindsight, I sort of wish I had gone for it: between the crisis, Oasis, KA, 3-man ULH and age 65 I won't get a crack at it for years, and thanks to the company slashing FACA unilaterally I have to fly freighters anyway.
If you find yourself getting left-seat envy (it's only human), just remind yourself, as I do, that you had the same opportunity but chose a different path, one where good 'ole CX will end up buying you one or more houses... pretty good deal IMHO.
It really gets up my nose when instead of concentrating on who the real adversary is, pilots moan and complain enviously about their colleagues and their perceived advantages (B vs. A scalers, pax vs. freight, based vs. HKG, now expat vs. LEP). I hang my head in shame at the thought of management gleefully reading threads like this and realizing what a bunch of immature children we are.
Trebor: personally I haven't heard a freighter captain complain yet... actually over the last couple of years I think they have had the best rosters in the airline. As Buckaroo says, it sounds like it's you and a few whiney F/Os who didn't take the opportunity THAT YOU HAD TOO who need a little hardening...
And Messiah, once again they are making MORE money than they were previously (F-scale captain is more than B-scale F/O, at least on a base), just as you started making more money than you were in your previous job when you accepted B-scale (but no, no, that's different, of course you would never accept lower conditions than other people for doing the same job -um, er- except you plainly did.)
Matter of fact in hindsight, I sort of wish I had gone for it: between the crisis, Oasis, KA, 3-man ULH and age 65 I won't get a crack at it for years, and thanks to the company slashing FACA unilaterally I have to fly freighters anyway.
If you find yourself getting left-seat envy (it's only human), just remind yourself, as I do, that you had the same opportunity but chose a different path, one where good 'ole CX will end up buying you one or more houses... pretty good deal IMHO.
It really gets up my nose when instead of concentrating on who the real adversary is, pilots moan and complain enviously about their colleagues and their perceived advantages (B vs. A scalers, pax vs. freight, based vs. HKG, now expat vs. LEP). I hang my head in shame at the thought of management gleefully reading threads like this and realizing what a bunch of immature children we are.
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Here's a new slant (just to antagonize the troops),
why don't we ask CX to divi up profit sharing based on pax or freight. Would you PAX only guys object to that?
why don't we ask CX to divi up profit sharing based on pax or freight. Would you PAX only guys object to that?
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Originally Posted by freightdoggiedog
And Messiah, once again they are making MORE money than they were previously (F-scale captain is more than B-scale F/O, at least on a base), just as you started making more money than you were in your previous job when you accepted B-scale (but no, no, that's different, of course you would never accept lower conditions than other people for doing the same job -um, er- except you plainly did.)
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I have an idea!!!!!!!
This is really great, I think this could actually work!!!
Why not find some sort of date-entry based system, in order to avoid too competitive behaviour/mobbing by certain individuals, and at the same time preserve a culture of respect and safety in the cockpit.
We could call it : S E N i O R I T Y - L I S T !
This is really great, I think this could actually work!!!
Why not find some sort of date-entry based system, in order to avoid too competitive behaviour/mobbing by certain individuals, and at the same time preserve a culture of respect and safety in the cockpit.
We could call it : S E N i O R I T Y - L I S T !
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T.M.
Again incorrect. Frtr guys who joined on the frtr scale (again a lesser scale than B scale) knew before they joined (or as they joined) that there was the possibility to go for an early command on frtr salary. Hence, the reason many of them actually joined. i.e. planning to attempt the command course on the frtr. This also allowed them to hold their base (quite an important item after the raise of retirement age to 65). Plus, again, it isn't necessarily left seat envy as you call it but surely pay packet envy as (again to hopefully help you understand) the pay is more than pax FO. Please do the math dude.
And if you joined on B scale but didn't actually know it was a "scale" lesser than A scale, then I would suggest you should have done more homework.
Point is, guys join a company because it is better than where they were working before. And there was no longer an IFALPA hiring ban after 2003 or 2004 to say "hey wait a minute maybe I shouldn't accept this lower pay scale". It was the only way to join as a DEFO, as it currently is today with the UFO pay scale.
PS: are you ever going to explain why you started this discussion on this thread? guess not.
Again incorrect. Frtr guys who joined on the frtr scale (again a lesser scale than B scale) knew before they joined (or as they joined) that there was the possibility to go for an early command on frtr salary. Hence, the reason many of them actually joined. i.e. planning to attempt the command course on the frtr. This also allowed them to hold their base (quite an important item after the raise of retirement age to 65). Plus, again, it isn't necessarily left seat envy as you call it but surely pay packet envy as (again to hopefully help you understand) the pay is more than pax FO. Please do the math dude.
And if you joined on B scale but didn't actually know it was a "scale" lesser than A scale, then I would suggest you should have done more homework.
Point is, guys join a company because it is better than where they were working before. And there was no longer an IFALPA hiring ban after 2003 or 2004 to say "hey wait a minute maybe I shouldn't accept this lower pay scale". It was the only way to join as a DEFO, as it currently is today with the UFO pay scale.
PS: are you ever going to explain why you started this discussion on this thread? guess not.
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buckaroo I am talking about guys from the pax fleet who jumped over for an early command. Guys who joined on the freighter is another discussion entirely.
Guys keep talking about joining on B scale as if there was another option. "A" scale was long gone before I joined and talking to the original "A" scalers they all agree that it was never going to be around after '97 and the changeover. Times change, it was likely inevitable really but once again that's another discussion.
BTW it was freightdog who came up with "left seat envy", I was just using it back at him.
As for why I started this discussion? Because I felt like it.
You said, "why don't we ask CX to divi up profit sharing based on pax or freight". FYI the majority of freight profit is made from the freight carried in the belly of pax aircraft, but who cares?
Guys keep talking about joining on B scale as if there was another option. "A" scale was long gone before I joined and talking to the original "A" scalers they all agree that it was never going to be around after '97 and the changeover. Times change, it was likely inevitable really but once again that's another discussion.
BTW it was freightdog who came up with "left seat envy", I was just using it back at him.
As for why I started this discussion? Because I felt like it.
You said, "why don't we ask CX to divi up profit sharing based on pax or freight". FYI the majority of freight profit is made from the freight carried in the belly of pax aircraft, but who cares?
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It doesn't matter what the thread topic is about, it seems that on this board the resulting argument will always be the same.
We're theatrically fighting behind a veil of anonymity like barking dogs behind closed fences.
Anyhow, back (slightly) to the original topic.
The first CX bird is out of the paint shop, with a 'special' livery:
Now to see whether they manage to sort it out.
But then it could be CX's opportunity to whine for some delay compensations, since they missed those given to A380 and 787 customers.
'Howzabout a couple a free 300ERs for the trouble Mr. Tyler, with our compliments...'
We're theatrically fighting behind a veil of anonymity like barking dogs behind closed fences.
Anyhow, back (slightly) to the original topic.
The first CX bird is out of the paint shop, with a 'special' livery:
Now to see whether they manage to sort it out.
But then it could be CX's opportunity to whine for some delay compensations, since they missed those given to A380 and 787 customers.
'Howzabout a couple a free 300ERs for the trouble Mr. Tyler, with our compliments...'