Housing
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sisyphos,
The way you use emotion over reason I actually would hate to be sitting next to you during an emergency.
Hydrolix is right! Lets at least be consistent with our argument over why LEPs don't get housing. We say that it is not a discrimination issue because they had to entice us to Hong Kong with an expat package. Fair enough, but then if you choose to return to Hong Kong on your own will, why should you get housing assistance over and above what an LEP receives?? If that is the case every LEP who chooses to take a base should get full housing. If they don't then it most certainly becomes a discrimination issue.
The same people that are most vocal about this issue are probably the same people that jumped on CoS08, guess what that was yet another erosion of our conditions, but that didn't stop any of you from signing over!!!
Also, wake up to reality, there is good reason why these are called negotiations and not an ultimatum to the company. You are going to give up something to gain another, that is a fact! You can bang your fist on the desk all you want, but unless the majority is prepared to take industrial action you should concede to the fact that you have no choice but to bargain.
The way you use emotion over reason I actually would hate to be sitting next to you during an emergency.
Hydrolix is right! Lets at least be consistent with our argument over why LEPs don't get housing. We say that it is not a discrimination issue because they had to entice us to Hong Kong with an expat package. Fair enough, but then if you choose to return to Hong Kong on your own will, why should you get housing assistance over and above what an LEP receives?? If that is the case every LEP who chooses to take a base should get full housing. If they don't then it most certainly becomes a discrimination issue.
The same people that are most vocal about this issue are probably the same people that jumped on CoS08, guess what that was yet another erosion of our conditions, but that didn't stop any of you from signing over!!!
Also, wake up to reality, there is good reason why these are called negotiations and not an ultimatum to the company. You are going to give up something to gain another, that is a fact! You can bang your fist on the desk all you want, but unless the majority is prepared to take industrial action you should concede to the fact that you have no choice but to bargain.
Flap10
More like you want me to accept a lower conditions of service so that cadets can get housing? I don’t think so. You and Hydrolix are two faced. On one hand you tell us the AOA will only sell us down the creek but on the other hand you are prepared to peddle and accept a reduced set of conditions of service in our housing. Pontificating about the logic or fairness of our housing policy is irrelevant. That is the housing policy I and others have agreed to when we came here and I will not accept anything less. I personally agree that there should be housing for cadets but it will not be at my or any other expat’s expense.
You are going to give up something to gain another, that is a fact!
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404 Titan
If I am being two faced then you are being a big hypocrite.
Lets face it you don't give a rat's ass about anyone but yourself. This has nothing to do about what is fair and what is not and all about how it will personally affect you. A little advice, don't talk too big, we both know what you will do when judgement day comes.
Just bear in mind that the only thing that is contractual about housing is that you should received some sort of assistance. The amount that they pay is NOT contractual. They do not need your consent to reduce the amount.
If I am being two faced then you are being a big hypocrite.
but it will not be at my or any other expat’s expense.
Just bear in mind that the only thing that is contractual about housing is that you should received some sort of assistance. The amount that they pay is NOT contractual. They do not need your consent to reduce the amount.
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Flap 10
Why would you want to decrease one of your colleagues COS?
Even if he is getting something you are not. I'm not on 'A' scale, but I certainly don't want to see their contract decreased anymore. I will however try to increase mine.
Is it fair that some get 'A' scale and some get housing and some don't, yes, it is the contract they agreed to sign.
Even if he is getting something you are not. I'm not on 'A' scale, but I certainly don't want to see their contract decreased anymore. I will however try to increase mine.
Is it fair that some get 'A' scale and some get housing and some don't, yes, it is the contract they agreed to sign.
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Brown Nose
I am not posting my views because I want to decrease the conditions of my colleagues. FYI I am not an LEP and I am certainly not the one that signed over CoS08 and significantly reduced the time to upgrade of my junior colleagues.
The argument that is being used to defend why an expat receives housing over an LEP is completely flawed and is hypocritical. I have argued in previous threads and support your views that an LEP can't complain about expat benefits when he/she accepted the terms of their contract. I agree!
However, to say hat we should still receive full expat benefits over an LEP when we voluntarily return to Hong Kong after taking a permanent base is wrong and is discriminatory against the LEPs. If you weren't enticed to return to Hong Kong why should any of us expect full expat benefits??
The company has no choice but to change the terms to avoid a discriminatory lawsuit. Unless it is forced to pay full expat benefits to everyone in Hong Kong, but I trust my colleagues as much as I trust management when it comes to taking industrial action.
I am not posting my views because I want to decrease the conditions of my colleagues. FYI I am not an LEP and I am certainly not the one that signed over CoS08 and significantly reduced the time to upgrade of my junior colleagues.
The argument that is being used to defend why an expat receives housing over an LEP is completely flawed and is hypocritical. I have argued in previous threads and support your views that an LEP can't complain about expat benefits when he/she accepted the terms of their contract. I agree!
However, to say hat we should still receive full expat benefits over an LEP when we voluntarily return to Hong Kong after taking a permanent base is wrong and is discriminatory against the LEPs. If you weren't enticed to return to Hong Kong why should any of us expect full expat benefits??
The company has no choice but to change the terms to avoid a discriminatory lawsuit. Unless it is forced to pay full expat benefits to everyone in Hong Kong, but I trust my colleagues as much as I trust management when it comes to taking industrial action.
Last edited by Flap10; 18th Aug 2010 at 09:31.
Flap10
You are so myopic it defies belief. Your rants border on the nonsense that is being spread by the third floor. I couldn’t give a flying f**k whether an expat coming back to Hong Kong voluntarily and getting full housing is illogical to you. That is the agreement we have with the company and as far as I'm concerned it is not negotiable.
As I have said before I have no problem with cadets getting housing but it will not be at my expense. If you don’t like that, tough. If you can’t see that the company is trying to split the pilot body down expat/lep lines by spreading this nonsensical rumoured proposal then there is no hope for us. We should be striving for full expat terms for cadets, rather than expecting expats to accept lower conditions of service. Once you give something away you will never get it back. Today it is housing. Next they’ll be wanting to take away our FOC's. In industrial negotiations you should never give anything away. By doing so you are committing industrial suicide.
Regarding the housing agreement, it is a signed agreement (contract) between the company and the AOA over, I believe, a two to four year period. Only at the end of that agreement can the company change how housing payments are calculated. There isn’t many agreements more sensitive than housing that would focus the pilot body if the company decided to scr*w us over. The last AOA vote when the company proposed significant changes for new joiners is testament to how the majority of the pilot body feels about housing.
You are so myopic it defies belief. Your rants border on the nonsense that is being spread by the third floor. I couldn’t give a flying f**k whether an expat coming back to Hong Kong voluntarily and getting full housing is illogical to you. That is the agreement we have with the company and as far as I'm concerned it is not negotiable.
As I have said before I have no problem with cadets getting housing but it will not be at my expense. If you don’t like that, tough. If you can’t see that the company is trying to split the pilot body down expat/lep lines by spreading this nonsensical rumoured proposal then there is no hope for us. We should be striving for full expat terms for cadets, rather than expecting expats to accept lower conditions of service. Once you give something away you will never get it back. Today it is housing. Next they’ll be wanting to take away our FOC's. In industrial negotiations you should never give anything away. By doing so you are committing industrial suicide.
Regarding the housing agreement, it is a signed agreement (contract) between the company and the AOA over, I believe, a two to four year period. Only at the end of that agreement can the company change how housing payments are calculated. There isn’t many agreements more sensitive than housing that would focus the pilot body if the company decided to scr*w us over. The last AOA vote when the company proposed significant changes for new joiners is testament to how the majority of the pilot body feels about housing.
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Flap10,
No it's not.
It is a condition of the COS signed when expats joined CX.
I believe if we are to protect our conditions as a pilot body we need to raise everyones (Expats, LEP's, iCadets) entitlements, not reduce them.
However, to say that we should still receive full expat benefits over an LEP when we voluntarily return to Hong Kong after taking a permanent base is wrong and is discriminatory. If you weren't enticed to return to Hong Kong why should any of us expect full expat benefits??
It is a condition of the COS signed when expats joined CX.
I believe if we are to protect our conditions as a pilot body we need to raise everyones (Expats, LEP's, iCadets) entitlements, not reduce them.
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404 Titan,
LMAO 
Trust me you are doing a much better job at splitting the pilot body than management, and if you can't see that then maybe the one with myopia is yourself. Regardless, thanks for the laugh!
Great at least we agree on one thing!!! However, how far will you go to achieve the above, will you strike over it, will you put your job on the line over it??
Problem is I've been here long enough to know nonsense being spread by people pretending they are militant but buckling and abandoning their mates on the 11th hour.
Harbour,
Not once have I said that I would prefer seeing a reduction in CoS over an improvement to all. But lets be realistic, the majority of the pilot body abandoned 51 pilots after they were unfairly dismissed. What makes you think they are going to fight for LEP/Cadets.
As I've said before, the company CANNOT keep the current terms because IT IS discriminatory, just like forcing individuals to retire at 55 was discriminatory. Hence the CoS08 offer. The company beat any potential lawsuit with it eventhough it was a reduction in conditions (A scales being reduced to B scales, NO BPP), but how many declined????
As I have said before I have no problem with cadets getting housing but it will not be at my expense.
If you can’t see that the company is trying to split the pilot body down expat/lep lines by spreading this nonsensical rumoured proposal then there is no hope for us.
Trust me you are doing a much better job at splitting the pilot body than management, and if you can't see that then maybe the one with myopia is yourself. Regardless, thanks for the laugh!
We should be striving for full expat terms for cadets, rather than expecting expats to accept lower conditions of service
as far as I'm concerned it is not negotiable.
Harbour,
I believe if we are to protect our conditions as a pilot body we need to raise everyones (Expats, LEP's, iCadets) entitlements, not reduce them.
As I've said before, the company CANNOT keep the current terms because IT IS discriminatory, just like forcing individuals to retire at 55 was discriminatory. Hence the CoS08 offer. The company beat any potential lawsuit with it eventhough it was a reduction in conditions (A scales being reduced to B scales, NO BPP), but how many declined????
Last edited by Flap10; 18th Aug 2010 at 10:21.
Flap10
I’ll leave you to think what you will about me and how big my balls may be but it is obvious to most here you’re a raving idiot. I’ve flown with more cadets than I can count over the last few months and not one of them wants or sees the benefit in getting housing at the expense of expats T&C’s. Infact they all see it as divisive. It’s your argument that is divisive, not mine or anyone else that can see what the company is trying to do. You have quite clearly fallen for the company’s tactics hook line and sinker.
I’ll leave you to think what you will about me and how big my balls may be but it is obvious to most here you’re a raving idiot. I’ve flown with more cadets than I can count over the last few months and not one of them wants or sees the benefit in getting housing at the expense of expats T&C’s. Infact they all see it as divisive. It’s your argument that is divisive, not mine or anyone else that can see what the company is trying to do. You have quite clearly fallen for the company’s tactics hook line and sinker.
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Flap 10, people don't voluntarily return to Hong Kong, 99.9% only come back when their command is up for grabs; like 404 Titan has tried to hammer home to you before. If you use your flawed logic, then nobody should recieve housing allowance because we all chose voluntarily to move to Hong Kong, just like you VOLUNTARILY, because I'm sure you're a cadet, signed a contract without any housing assistance.
Some people here ( Insert Flap10 ) just can't seem to see the Wood for the Trees.
There is no way in hell me or anyone else in this Company should be coerced into giving up anything so as to give to another. By all means fight for Housing for LEP's, fight for whatever you deserve but not at anothers expense.
Classic divide and conquer tactics by Management.
As others have said, never give anything away........it only leads to worse.
There is no way in hell me or anyone else in this Company should be coerced into giving up anything so as to give to another. By all means fight for Housing for LEP's, fight for whatever you deserve but not at anothers expense.
Classic divide and conquer tactics by Management.
As others have said, never give anything away........it only leads to worse.
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Hey, if LEP want housing, they should be the ones leading the industrial action. I probably won't fight myself for their housing.
But you can be sure I will go on strike if any of them is fired due to taking industrial action.
And that's what the primary role of the AOA must be: defend anybody against an unfair dismissal.
But you can be sure I will go on strike if any of them is fired due to taking industrial action.
And that's what the primary role of the AOA must be: defend anybody against an unfair dismissal.
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Hey Flap 10
Yep I'll go on strike for you to get housing........as long as you prove yourself first and go on strike for me to get a travel allowance. I would surely love that even though it was not in the contract I signed.
All for increasing someones contract. Just gives me the sh!ts when one of our own colleagues wants to take away something from someone else who already has it.
All for increasing someones contract. Just gives me the sh!ts when one of our own colleagues wants to take away something from someone else who already has it.
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I agree with Fly123456. The company is eager to negotiate with us on housing now to avoid a discrimination court case they know they would lose later on. We need to see the big picture here guys. How much success have we had bargaining with CX: None! How much success in the courts: a lot more! Lets stick with a winning plan and take the legal avenue. That way the expats keep their housing and the LEPs get more than some token base rate to keep them quiet.
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I have a better idea in general...
Base salaries should reflect the cost of living at that base. HKG is the most expensive base in CX and therefore the salary should be proportional. So:
- Scrap Housing Allowance and just increase all HKG salaries by 30-60k HKD according to rank. ie SO 30k, JFO 40k, etc, etc.
- Recruit Cadets onto a Junior Aircrew List with fixed promotion times... 2 years SO, 2 years JFO, then move onto a Senior Aircrew List as FO where DEFO's join. Adjust SO/JFO scales according to the payback requirement for Adelaide.
- Recruit only cadets onto SO rank, all other direct entry recruitment as FO only whilst banning DEC recruitment!!!
- Remove the ridiculous 4 year base freeze and open up HKG to DEFO's...
My DFO promotion is no doubt just around the corner...
Base salaries should reflect the cost of living at that base. HKG is the most expensive base in CX and therefore the salary should be proportional. So:
- Scrap Housing Allowance and just increase all HKG salaries by 30-60k HKD according to rank. ie SO 30k, JFO 40k, etc, etc.
- Recruit Cadets onto a Junior Aircrew List with fixed promotion times... 2 years SO, 2 years JFO, then move onto a Senior Aircrew List as FO where DEFO's join. Adjust SO/JFO scales according to the payback requirement for Adelaide.
- Recruit only cadets onto SO rank, all other direct entry recruitment as FO only whilst banning DEC recruitment!!!
- Remove the ridiculous 4 year base freeze and open up HKG to DEFO's...
My DFO promotion is no doubt just around the corner...
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We already agreed to the 24K housing.
Didn't the AOA agree a few years back that year 5 F/O pay and 24K housing was more than enough compensation for a command on the freighter in Hong Kong. Deal of the century apparently, so since we have already decided that it's more than enough what is the problem with bringing in 24K for housing across the board now and levelling pax command pay at freighter level. No-one really needs the extra pay on the pax fleet package, I agree with the AOA we've already had expats on 24K in Hong Kong for years and it is more than adequate.
It's the same aircraft after all (freighter or pax), it is apparently more than enough money and importantly we'd be helping the company out.
Didn't the AOA agree a few years back that year 5 F/O pay and 24K housing was more than enough compensation for a command on the freighter in Hong Kong. Deal of the century apparently, so since we have already decided that it's more than enough what is the problem with bringing in 24K for housing across the board now and levelling pax command pay at freighter level. No-one really needs the extra pay on the pax fleet package, I agree with the AOA we've already had expats on 24K in Hong Kong for years and it is more than adequate.
It's the same aircraft after all (freighter or pax), it is apparently more than enough money and importantly we'd be helping the company out.
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surely not another whinge from those who dived into the left hand seat of a freighter and dont like it anymore!
early freighter commands got just what they signed up for, HTFU and suck it up.
early freighter commands got just what they signed up for, HTFU and suck it up.