2 Man Ultra Long Range
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Observing,
Have you ever filled out a Commander's Discretion Form? There is no offence in the question, I want to point out that it uses a flow chart to help you complete the form. The flow chart does not use para 15.4 to help you determine which direction to proceed. The only distinguishing factor between ULR Ops and Normal Ops as you complete the form is the time zone change. Remember this is a legal document that has been approved by the CAD.
As I've said if para 15.4 was so crucial it would not have been defined as a Legstrech requirement, it would have been THE item you would refer to first. But it is not written this way, otherwise it skews the entire structure of the AFTL.
Have you ever filled out a Commander's Discretion Form? There is no offence in the question, I want to point out that it uses a flow chart to help you complete the form. The flow chart does not use para 15.4 to help you determine which direction to proceed. The only distinguishing factor between ULR Ops and Normal Ops as you complete the form is the time zone change. Remember this is a legal document that has been approved by the CAD.
As I've said if para 15.4 was so crucial it would not have been defined as a Legstrech requirement, it would have been THE item you would refer to first. But it is not written this way, otherwise it skews the entire structure of the AFTL.
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F10,
The CDR is just a piece of paper which depicts and justifies why a FDP exceeded the maximum. There endith the legality of it.
It is not the reference for FTL's. Ops Manual Part A is.
If you follow the arrow below the ULH box, you only have 2 choices.
STANDARD FDP 3 PILOTS
STANDARD FDP 4 PILOTS
There is no option for 2 pilots because then it would not be ULR.
The form may be a little misleading, but it ain't the rule book.
(Fill out a manual CAR......work that out in 5 mins!)
The CDR is just a piece of paper which depicts and justifies why a FDP exceeded the maximum. There endith the legality of it.
It is not the reference for FTL's. Ops Manual Part A is.
If you follow the arrow below the ULH box, you only have 2 choices.
STANDARD FDP 3 PILOTS
STANDARD FDP 4 PILOTS
There is no option for 2 pilots because then it would not be ULR.
The form may be a little misleading, but it ain't the rule book.
(Fill out a manual CAR......work that out in 5 mins!)
Bear in mind that because this is a 2 crew normal ops flight we can extend the duty by an additonal 3 hours through the use of discretion to return an aircraft to HKG.
By the way, while a 40 minute turnaround might be perfectly achievable in TPE, I would suggest that achieving the same in BJS is an entirely different kettle of fish.
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The CDR is just a piece of paper which depicts and justifies why a FDP exceeded the maximum. There endith the legality of it.
You can just as easily justify the exceedance throug a written explanation. It wasn't Joe Blow that made the form during lunch hours. It is a thought out form to simplify the completion, but to also reflect the AFTL in every way. We are talking about a form that can be admitted in court as evidence. It is not just a piece of paper!
Basically it is impossible for you to complete the form the way you are interpreting the AFTL.
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F10,
Yes, the form is a legal document.
It contains the justification as to why the Max FDP was exceeded using discretion. That's all it is.
PART A is the legal FTL document for CX crew.
Not the CDR.
Starting to flog a dead horse here.
You should probably make it a discussion point on your next line check.
Maybe then you will be convinced.
O
Yes, the form is a legal document.
It contains the justification as to why the Max FDP was exceeded using discretion. That's all it is.
PART A is the legal FTL document for CX crew.
Not the CDR.
Starting to flog a dead horse here.
You should probably make it a discussion point on your next line check.
Maybe then you will be convinced.
O
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OK Mr. Bollocks grab one and fill it out after completing ORD/AMS. What's going to happen when there has been extensive ground delays in ORD followed by extensive holding delays in AMS and you have to use discretion.
Where have I made reference to the fact that discretion can be used prior to a scheduled flight????? I was arguing that any delays in PEK can be easily overcome by the use of discretion.
Why don't you answer me Buzz, forget the math, does the AFTL allow us to fly FRA/PEK/HKG two crew????
Where have I made reference to the fact that discretion can be used prior to a scheduled flight????? I was arguing that any delays in PEK can be easily overcome by the use of discretion.
Why don't you answer me Buzz, forget the math, does the AFTL allow us to fly FRA/PEK/HKG two crew????
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F10,
refer Part A:
Normal Operation
Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.
Ultra Long Range Operation
An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of
six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.
Discretion report for ext of FDP
Choice 1 – Normal Operation
Choice 2 ULR (ULH – old forms)
If it is not ULR (see Definition) it is a Normal Operation –(see definition).
The form is easily filled out….if you are that way inclined!
You NEVER have to use discretion.
refer Part A:
Normal Operation
Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.
Ultra Long Range Operation
An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of
six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.
Discretion report for ext of FDP
Choice 1 – Normal Operation
Choice 2 ULR (ULH – old forms)
If it is not ULR (see Definition) it is a Normal Operation –(see definition).
The form is easily filled out….if you are that way inclined!
You NEVER have to use discretion.
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Not a single person has answered my question about whether the AFTL allows 2 crew operation from/to Europe and North America in one duty period. You won't because you know very well that it will automatically disprove everything you have been saying. So I will answer for you as my last post.
If you answer YES than it doesn't make logical sense since you cannot have a ULR flight converted to a normal ops flight by the use of 2 crew. The AFTL was never writen with that intent.
If you answer NO then obviously ORD/AMS is crewed illegally.
You see it all comes right back to the way the AFTL was writen.
6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!
If you answer YES than it doesn't make logical sense since you cannot have a ULR flight converted to a normal ops flight by the use of 2 crew. The AFTL was never writen with that intent.
If you answer NO then obviously ORD/AMS is crewed illegally.
You see it all comes right back to the way the AFTL was writen.
6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!
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6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!
Well, it’s settled then F10.
Enjoy that next line check.
Stick to ya guns mate.
Why don't you do all the leg work for the scenario's you want, and put the flt times, block times etc up.
(I can't be bothered)
Then let's refer to Part A.
Well, it’s settled then F10.
Enjoy that next line check.
Stick to ya guns mate.
Why don't you do all the leg work for the scenario's you want, and put the flt times, block times etc up.
(I can't be bothered)
Then let's refer to Part A.
What's going to happen when there has been extensive ground delays in ORD followed by extensive holding delays in AMS and you have to use discretion.
How do you decide if the operation requires 3 or more pilots? By first checking to see if the it can be completed under Normal Operations with two pilots. If not, and the time change is 6 hours or more, then and only then is the operation defined as ULR. It's not ULR simply because the time change is 6 hours or more.
In the case of ORD/AMS, it's a Normal operation, so you would fill out the Normal Operations side of the CDR form in the event that discretion was necessary.
To answer your question, no the AFTLS do not allow two crew to fly FRA-BJS-HKG, simply because two crew could not do it within the maximum FDP.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 22nd Jul 2010 at 13:00.
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To answer your question, no the AFTLS do not allow two crew to fly FRA-BJS-HKG, simply because two crew could not do it within the maximum FDP.
So no because of FDP restrictions and not because of actual AFTL rule???
Come on Buzz you are beating around the bush here. Ok then what about Hong Kong, Sapporo, Anchorage??? That is well within an FDP of 13+15, no matter how much you argue??
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F10 Give it up mate. Lots of people have taken the time to straighten you out but you just can't see it even though it's as clear as dog's bollox.
Re your last attempt to float another red herring. Why do you think HKG-CTS-ANC is possible with 2 crew? Todays 580 had a flight time of 4h 30m and a block time of 5h so let's say you get turned around in 1h you're already 7h 10 mins into your FDP (assuming you blocked off on time in HKG) before you've even taxied in CTS not even half way to ANC. So no it can't be done and even if it could why is it so important to your understanding of the FTL's? It's completely irrelevant.
That's me done and good luck with your LC if you still haven't got the FTL's squared away by then.
Re your last attempt to float another red herring. Why do you think HKG-CTS-ANC is possible with 2 crew? Todays 580 had a flight time of 4h 30m and a block time of 5h so let's say you get turned around in 1h you're already 7h 10 mins into your FDP (assuming you blocked off on time in HKG) before you've even taxied in CTS not even half way to ANC. So no it can't be done and even if it could why is it so important to your understanding of the FTL's? It's completely irrelevant.
That's me done and good luck with your LC if you still haven't got the FTL's squared away by then.
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yes I didn't realize ANC was a 16 hour flight......I meant flying to ANC eastward not westward mate!!!!! Nor am I talking about flying a little turboprop.
Doesn't matter what time you block off from HKG since you can use discretion at that point, but again shows your complete lack of understanding of the AFTL.
The relevance is that your interpretation allows 2 crew to cross an unlimited number of time zones within 1 duty period.
Excuse me, but you and three others arguing on a forum doesn't make you right mate!!!!....Worry about your own line check.
Doesn't matter what time you block off from HKG since you can use discretion at that point, but again shows your complete lack of understanding of the AFTL.
The relevance is that your interpretation allows 2 crew to cross an unlimited number of time zones within 1 duty period.
Excuse me, but you and three others arguing on a forum doesn't make you right mate!!!!....Worry about your own line check.
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6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!
8 time zones, thus ULR.
Q.E.D. quod erat demonstrandum
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SMOC to be fair to Flaps10 what he means is that there is no protection in place, or nothing specified for long range two crew operation. Hypothetically speaking what if CX were looking at continuing that service ( ANC to Scoresbysund Airport (OBY) in Greenland) to Rome Fiumicino utilizing same 2 crew. Haven't worked out numbers so not sure if it can be done within 2 crew FDP, but assuming it can, that is total of 10 hour time zone change. As much as you are taking the piss, that is a seriously long duty for two pilots, and crossing way too many time zones. To boot the two poor sods most likely operated from Hong Kong the day before with min rest in Anchorage and body clock somewhere between Hong Kong and God knows where. Just maybe there is some relevance in what he is trying to say. Would be hard to define the above flight as "normal". All I can say thank god I am not on the 400 
Last edited by Dragon69; 22nd Jul 2010 at 17:54.
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6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!
It is true the AFTLS was written for East-West ops. Whether it makes sense for north-south patterns is another matter. ULH in the AFTLS is and always has been defined by time zone alone.
This new interpretation is a try-on by the company. Unfortunately they appear to have 'sold' this new interpretation with some success as evidenced by various posts on this forum.
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OK, more thorough people than I have tried and probably now given up, but here goes:
Peter
If "ULH in the AFTLS is and always has been defined by time zone alone."
why does part A state
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes"? (Please note the absence of the word "or" in that sentence).
and not simply
"An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."
Flaps10
I'll answer your question about FRA-BJS-HKG (or PEK if you prefer!)
Yes, it may be operated by 2 crew if the sector/FDP limits can be achieved.
Peter
If "ULH in the AFTLS is and always has been defined by time zone alone."
why does part A state
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes"? (Please note the absence of the word "or" in that sentence).
and not simply
"An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."
Flaps10
I'll answer your question about FRA-BJS-HKG (or PEK if you prefer!)
Yes, it may be operated by 2 crew if the sector/FDP limits can be achieved.
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Peter,
All I am sold on is what is written in PART A.
Not what’s on the discretion report and most definitely not what I read on pprune.
I am pretty sure that when I joined, UL(H) was defined as 6 hours time zone change only? There have been 2 RP agreements since then.
It appears the definition has subtly changed; perhaps during those agreements, or in one of those amendments that piled up in the mail box?
For one thing…it’s now called Ultra Long Range Ops.
Regardless, we are bound by Part A.
If we need protection from ridiculous sector pairings to achieve ULR with 2 pilots, then this will have to sorted in future RP agreements.
Perhaps in desperation, C/Ctl may “give it a go”. As pointed out, if it falls within the FTLs, what is to stop them?
At the end of the day, this discussion has boiled down to what is acceptable or not with regards to ULR and the use of 2 pilots.
Part A FTLs are specifically clear. If we want protection, then we have to get it changed.
The AOA is only way that can happen. The stronger the membership, the best chance we have in influencing changes.
For an extended post on FTLs, not one word about this in the RP thread in the AOA forums.....Probably a better place for it.
I am not passing judgment on non-members, but they are wasting their time posting here......they have no voice at all.
For a couple of beers a month, give it ago, and have a say...or better still run for the GC. There are some major negotiations coming up.
(Yeah...I know....wasting my time)
All I am sold on is what is written in PART A.
Not what’s on the discretion report and most definitely not what I read on pprune.
I am pretty sure that when I joined, UL(H) was defined as 6 hours time zone change only? There have been 2 RP agreements since then.
It appears the definition has subtly changed; perhaps during those agreements, or in one of those amendments that piled up in the mail box?
For one thing…it’s now called Ultra Long Range Ops.
Regardless, we are bound by Part A.
If we need protection from ridiculous sector pairings to achieve ULR with 2 pilots, then this will have to sorted in future RP agreements.
Perhaps in desperation, C/Ctl may “give it a go”. As pointed out, if it falls within the FTLs, what is to stop them?
At the end of the day, this discussion has boiled down to what is acceptable or not with regards to ULR and the use of 2 pilots.
Part A FTLs are specifically clear. If we want protection, then we have to get it changed.
The AOA is only way that can happen. The stronger the membership, the best chance we have in influencing changes.
For an extended post on FTLs, not one word about this in the RP thread in the AOA forums.....Probably a better place for it.
I am not passing judgment on non-members, but they are wasting their time posting here......they have no voice at all.
For a couple of beers a month, give it ago, and have a say...or better still run for the GC. There are some major negotiations coming up.
(Yeah...I know....wasting my time)
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Once more unto the breach....
No, it hasn't. You must also REQUIRE 3 or more crew. Read the ATFLs again.
In 10 words or less, can you please tell me which para, table or section stipulates - on its own - that a 7 hour flight REQUIRES 3 crew?
6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!
In 10 words or less, can you please tell me which para, table or section stipulates - on its own - that a 7 hour flight REQUIRES 3 crew?