2 Man Ultra Long Range

[fire wall]

sorvad,
The proposed service is hkg-anc-ord-ams-dxb-hkg with all stopovers around 18 hrs duration except hkg and ord which are 50 hrs.
Entire pattern length is planned to be 9 days.
After a trip like such your how do you see your "few days off in the sun with the family" going? I know it will take me a few days of sleeping to get over such and then, given the current crewing problems on the 400, I will have a bob or two that I will be called out to do another one.

As for the previous comments re ULR / 3 man crewing etc, rostering must be wetting themselves at the lack of understanding of the AFTL's (they have only been in existence since '07 !). Some of you are a professional embarrassment.

[Observing]

CX / CAD definitions:

Normal Operation

Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.

Ultra Long Range Operation

An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.

This is just a definition. Whether or not you consider 6 time
zones or what ever to be “ULTRA”, is irrelevant.

These definitions distinguish Normal ops (standard flight duty periods) from Long haul ops.

It distinguishes the rest/relief facilities required.
It distinguishes the time at controls.
It distinguishes max FDP.
It distinguishes the type of rest one requires following the duty (Normal or physiological)

Does ORD-AMS require 3 or more pilots?

local time of departure (worst case acclimatised crew, 2200-0659):
max FDP is 11 hours;
Sked flt time: say 7:30???? (haven’t looked it up…not logging in..it’s a day off!)
So FDP = 8:30 and sector length = 7:30.
As sector length is < 8 hours, no 3rd pilot required.
As FDP < 11 hours, no 3rd pilot is required.

By definition: this is not an ULR operation as 3 or more pilots are not required, even though there are > 6 time zones crossed.
However as 6 or more time zones were crossed, the crew will require physiological rest,
not normal rest. As they crossed > 3 time zones, they are now Unacclimatised. This will effect their next FDP (table B)

That’s it in a nutshell guys……like it or not.
If you want to refuse the duty….good luck with that.

[Dragon69]

As for the previous comments re ULR / 3 man crewing etc, rostering must be wetting themselves at the lack of understanding of the AFTL's (they have only been in existence since '07 !). Some of you are a professional embarrassment.

I love these fu&%ers that come here mock others for being a "professional embarrasment" and yet are too **** scared to contribute anything at the risk of being a "professional embarrasment". But already too late..."in existence since '07"????????? hahaha LMAO!!!!!

I must admit I've been following the debate and I am on the fence on this one, interesting points raised by both sides. Has anyone gotten clarification from the 3rd floor?

[SQC7991]

I find it quite bizarre that some of our crew are having difficulty with this issue. I tried before to simplify the matter but red herrings were raised in response particularly by F10. I’ll try again if I may and hopefully introduce a bit of common sense into the discussion.

The current FTL’s were produced mainly on the assumption that CX predominantly flies East – West on intercontinental flights. Starting/finishing in HKG (22 deg) inevitably means that such flights will be long haul or in CX terminology ULH which is defined as crossing 6 times zones AND long enough to require 3 or more crew. To state the obvious this definition covers most of the long haul flights carried out by CX. However it does not preclude that some flights which do cross more than 6 time zones yet are short enough not to require 3 or more crew can be safely operated under Para 15 Normal Ops. Clearly the ORD-AMS flight is one such sector and does not need to be operated under Para 16 ULH. However because this sector crosses more than 6 time zones the crew must be given physiological rest as per Table R. Someone previously commented that Table R only applies to ULH operations but this is not the case. Table R is published under Para 22 Rest Periods and therefore applies to all flights and not just those operated under Para 16 ULH Flights.

Please guys use some common sense here and stop trying to suggest that 3 crew are required for a 7 hour sector – they are not and never have been.

[Flap10]

SQ ok I'll bite again!

The current FTL’s were produced mainly on the assumption that CX predominantly flies East – West on intercontinental flights. Starting/finishing in HKG (22 deg) inevitably means that such flights will be long haul or in CX terminology ULH which is defined as crossing 6 times zones AND long enough to require 3 or more crew. To state the obvious this definition covers most of the long haul flights carried out by CX.

I totally agree!

However it does not preclude that some flights which do cross more than 6 time zones yet are short enough not to require 3 or more crew can be safely operated under Para 15 Normal Ops. Clearly the ORD-AMS flight is one such sector and does not need to be operated under Para 16 ULH.

As I was trying to say before, the AFTL was drafted a decade ago, when they did not envision an ORD/AMS pattern. In short ULR WAS NOT defined in such a way as to simply satisfy ONE new pattern and ignore other issues.

I am not arguing that it is not common sense to fly 2 crew ORD/AMS. Yes I agree that the AFTL is completely outaded and poorly worded, it obviously has not kept up with the change in our operation.

But the fact is, by current defenition, and correct LEGAL interpretation of how the AFTL is structured, it DOES NOT allow 2 crew flight beyond six time zones. Otherwise where is the protection to the scenario I presented in my previous posts?????? If you can show me that there is protection in place to prevent 2 crew HKG/CTS/ANC in one duty period, then I will humbly accept your view.

Before this pattern even came to light and crew control said, we need you to operate 2 crew FRA/HKG via PEK....how many of you that think ORD/AMS is legal would have accepted the duty, or would you have said it is illegal????? Be honest! If you think it would have been legal and were prepared to do the flight, and subsequently had to use discretion to return to Hong Kong, how exactly would you have completed the Commander's Discretion form? Would you have altered a legal docmunent by pen to suit the pattern???

If you say cx would rather cancel flights rather than make us work hard, then you will have lost all credibility.

Many of you are re-interpreting the original intent of the definition, and incorrectly using the AFTL by mixing sub-sections and sections to accomodate one lousy pattern, whilst failing to see its affect and consequences in the overall picture. I am sorry but that is not applying common sense.

Furthermore, and granted it is now a moot point due to the recent dispensation, but potentially looking at the worst possible scenario that would have been legally allowed according to your interpretation of the AFTL, we could have effectively flown FRA/PEK/HKG on one duty period, min rest in HKG, and then same 2 crew continues to HKG/CTS/ANC on another duty period. Obviously 16.1 (max time zone crossed in 1 duty cycle) clearly applied to ULR OPS and not to Normal OPS. Hence the above scenario would have been perfectly legal and circadian rhytm a non issue.

And here we are all seemingly worried about potentially doing 3 crew to Europe, when all along according to some of you it was perfectly legal to fly it 2 crew.

I have yet to see anyone properly counter argue my point.

The AFTL was writen based on the operation we had at the time or going to have in the planned future. It wasn't writen in a way to cover every unforseen pattern. Having an 8hr FDP and crossing six time zones did not even enter their minds. At the time flying 2 crew and crossing 6 time zones was a given that it couldn't even be done, because it was asummed that the FDP would automatically be too long for 2 crew. Hence it was never formely or properly addressed.

Ok I am not biting anymore unless there is something new to the debate, we seem to be going around in circles.

CIAO

[positionalpor]

AA flies ORD - AMS 3 men crw.
On a different note, my august roster is disgusting to say the least.

[BuzzBox]

Some interesting arguments, however, I agree that two crew can operate this sector quite legally within the AFTLs.

Two crew can operate a scheduled sector length of up to 9 hours, provided the sector does not extend through or end within the period 0200-0559 Local Time at the place where the FDP commenced, in which case the maximum would be 8 hours. It DOES NOT matter whether the flight is north/south, east/west or how many time zones it crosses. As others have already stated, crossing six or more time zones only affects the rest requirements.

The definition of an ULR operation is one 'requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes'. That does not mean that any operation which crosses six or more time zones is automatically ULR. The operation must also require three or more pilots to qualify as ULR.

So what determines the number of pilots required? The AFTLS do not say that three or more pilots are required in order to cross six or more time zones. The starting point to determine the number of pilots required is the Standard FDP tables (ie Table A & B) in Section 15 (Normal Operations), together with the Legstretch requirements in Para 15.4. If those requirements can be satisfied with two pilots, then the operation is not ULR. If, however, the requirements cannot be satisfied with two pilots and the operation crosses six or more time zones, then by definition the operation does qualify as ULR, and the provisions of Section 16 (Ultra Long Range Operations) then apply.

Some people seem to be putting the cart before the horse!

[Flap10]

Buzz,

It is you who are putting the cart before the horse.

The starting point.....Legstretch requirements in Para 15.4

So you are using a legstrech requirement to define a long haul flight in a long haul airplane that must have bunks ( look at para 12.2) ???

Para 13.1: On NORMAL OPERATION when an additional flight crew member is boarded in accordance with 15.4 either a bunk, or a comfortable reclining seat.....will be provided....

In-Flight Relief Facilities (section 12) defines what you need for long haul flight and is clearly distinct and seperate from Legstrech Facilities (section 13) which only applies to NORMAL OPS

I honestly give up!

Good day!

[BuzzBox]

I honestly give up!

Good, because you're wrong!

So you are using a legstrech requirement to define a long haul flight...?

No. If an operation requires a third pilot by virtue of Para 15.4 AND that flight crosses six or more time zones, then by definition it becomes an ULR operation and the appropriate in-flight rest facilities must be provided.

Consider two scenarios:

Scenario 1 - MEL-HKG, with a sector length of 9:30:
A third pilot must be boarded to satisfy Para 15.4, however, only 2 (or 3) time zones will be crossed, so only Legstretch facilities are required.

Scenario 2 - HKG-ANC, with a sector length of 10:00:
A third pilot must be boarded to satisfy Para 15.4, however, as more than 6 time zones will be crossed, the operation is defined as ULR and appropriate in-flight rest facilities (ie bunks) must be provided.

[Flap10]

I'll be sure to advise the people on the 3rd floor to ammend 13.1 to read;

On Normal Operations AND Ultra long Range Operation when an additional Flight Crew member is boarded in accordance with 15.4..."

Sorry comment removed.

Your second scenario is wrong. You don't arrive at three because it meets para 15.4 but because it crosses 6 time zones. Para 15.4 legstrech doesn't say one or more pilots musr be boarded, it only says one additional crew member required. So how do you apply it to the case where 4 crew are required for a ulh flight?

Problem is as soon as you interpret the definition to suit a single pattern, you create loopholes and cracks in the rest of the aftl and have to re-interpret every other section just to suit your argument.

[BuzzBox]

Now I can see why we have been dubbed million dollar morrons.

Quite.

By the way, what's a 'morron'?

[Observing]

F10,
If an additional crew member is required (ie total 3), and you cross more than 6 time zones...it is an ULR op. if the FDP will exceed 13 Hours, then you will need another additional crew member (total 4) to achieve a max FDP of 18 hours.

[BuzzBox]

You don't arrive at three because it meets para 15.4 but because it crosses 6 time zones.

Sorry, but where does it say you need three pilots because you cross 6 time zones?

So how do you apply it to the case where 4 crew are required for a ulh flight?

Three pilots are required either because of the leg stretch requirement, or because of the need to extend the normal FDP using in-flight rest. If the operation also crosses more than 6 time zones then it is defined as ULR, the provisions of Section 16 apply and the maximum FDP becomes 13 hours, regardless of time of start, etc. If that's not sufficient, then four pilots must be boarded and the maximum FDP becomes 18 hours.

[SQC7991]

F10 Seems you're the only one going round in circles. In answer to your points made to me regarding my last post - in order:

Don’t follow your logic – If they didn’t envisage flying shorter sectors through 6 or more time zones then why didn’t they just say ULH is more than 2 crew OR 6 time zones? It isn’t ONE new pattern these rules apply to any short sectors crossing 6 time zones. Now we have taken the first step across the Atlantic don’t you think there are more of these sectors in the pipeline? Some will be 2 man JFK-BRU etc or 3 man LAX/IAH/DFW - Europe

Who are you agreeing with? I don’t think nor have I said the FTL is completely outdated in fact I think quite the opposite.

This is your mistaken opinion not fact. The FTL’s do allow crossing 6 time zones with 2 crew providing the sector is short enough as is obvious to any one reading them properly.

This is a bizarre example to use as is HKG-CTS-ANC. Take FRA-PEK-HKG - current flight time non stop is approx 10hrs 38 minutes, add in an extra stop of at least 1hr 30 plus the diversion time and you would be looking at an FDP of around 14 hrs 30. How can this be accomplished with 2 crew? Same applies to HKG-CTS-ANC – current non stop flt time approx 10 hrs add in the stop in CTS at 1h 30m plus the diversion time and we get an FDP of 14 hours. Even if it were possible to do this sort of stuff and stay within the allowed FDP why would the company wish to risk an aircraft getting stuck halfway to it’s destination, pay additional fuel costs, engineering costs and navigation fees just to avoid putting a third crew member on board. It just doesn’t make any commercial sense which is why it is never done. Can you now see why your imagined scenario has not and will not happen?


This is not one lousy pattern – why do you think it is? No one is picking and choosing between sub-sections there are three paragraphs been discussed here – Para 15 Normal Ops, Para 16 ULH Ops and Para 22 Rest Periods. Para 22 applies to both Normal and ULH operations and table R within Para 22 has to be applied as appropriate to Normal Rest or Physiological Rest. Nowhere is the term ULH used under Physiological Rest it merely states time difference between duty start and finish is 6 hours or more. If nothing else this alone should be enough to convince you that you are interpreting the entire FTL incorrectly.

Your final paragraph aint worth an answer.

This reply was to your post as was and not before you edited what you originally said.

[Flap10]

Observing,

Para 15.4 is used solely to protect extended flights with two crew under normal ops. Hence it is a sub-section of section 15 and hence the reason for calling it LEGSTRECH. It was never ever meant to be used to determine whether a flight is normal ops or ulr ops. If its role is so crucial why not put it before section 15 or section 16.

Furthermore if you believe that ulr is exclusive to 3/4 crew and six time zones, then all of you believe that two crew europe and north america with an intermediate transit stop was always legal. So next time an s/o or f/o go sick in FRA, instead of cancelling the flight, cc can make the third pilot px and the flight now can go normal ops 2 crew with a transit stop in PEK. You won't have a leg to stand on when you argue with cc. They'll say it is all legal.

[SQC7991]

F10 the max permissible FDP with 2 sectors ranges from 10h 15m to 13h.15m from Table A and 12h 15 mins from Table B so how can 2 crew possibly do what you are suggesting? Please read my post above for further clarification.

[BuzzBox]

So next time an s/o or f/o go sick in FRA, instead of cancelling the flight, cc can make the third pilot px and the flight now can go normal ops 2 crew with a transit stop in PEK.

And how, exactly, could they do that? For a start, FRA-BJS is over 9 hours (check the Lufthansa website if you don't believe me), so can't be done with two pilots. Even if the sector time from FRA-BJS could be reduced to just under 9 hours, with a 1 hour stopover (doubtful in BJS!), another 3:35 from BJS-HKG, the total FDP would be at least 14:35. The maximum two-sector FDP for 2 acclimatised crew is only 13:15.

[Flap10]

First of all the AFTL is not a ala carte menu where you can pick and choose certain sub-sections and apply it to a completely different section. It is a legally binding document that has been carefully and correctly categorized and itemized. If a section has to make reference to another, it will be clearly annotated, such as notwithstanding xx.x, or under the provision of xx.x, etc.

Secondly I don't receive my flight information from a Lufthansa web site. I have done enough FRA/HKG in my time to know that it would be quite possible to do FRA/PEK/HKG, and don't even mention HKG/CTS/ANC. Bear in mind that because this is a 2 crew normal ops flight we can extend the duty by an additonal 3 hours through the use of discretion to return an aircraft to HKG. Hey it is you guys that seem to think that time zone changes has no relevance with 2 crew operation, I am just applying what you would normally do when flying around the region. And if you think that you would not be able to do FRA/PEK/HKG with an FDP of 16+15, then there is something seriously wrong with your maths. If you think that Cathay would rather cancel a flight and incure the heavy expense and knock-on effect than risk the airplane getting stuck in PEK, then you obviously have not done the middle of the night scheduled BALI turn around with FIFTEEN minutes to spare on max FDP. Also 1+30 transit time???? A fuel stop in TPE from LAX and airborne again was achieved in less than 40 minutes. So please spare me the BS!

The fact is you would love to rebuff my point not to be proven wrong. Your interpretation, although it would satisfy 1 pattern, it would disprove everything else within the AFTL and your point about circadian rythm being at the centre of this AFTL. Your interpretation can never work because it would make flying half way around the world and beyond 2 crew completely legal. Instead of arguing the math argue the point. How is it possible for a flight to be deemed ULR ops because it carries 3/4 crew and the same flight deemed normal ops because it all of a sudden has 2 crew? This has never been the intent of the AFTL!

If you think the ORD/AMS is legal then there is absolutely NOTHING in the AFTL to prevent my scenario of 2 crew to Europe or North America with a transit stop. Yes it doesn't make it commercially feasible, but it certainly is an arsenal that CX can use if faced with desperation.

Let me ask the forum;

DO YOU THINK FLYING 2 CREW FRA/PEK/HKG or HKG/CTS/ANC IS CURRENTLY LEGAL?

[Observing]

Normal Operation

Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.

Ultra Long Range Operation

An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of
six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.

ORD – AMS

Flt Time 7:00
Block Time 7:30
FDP 8:30

worst case: sign-on 2200 – 0659: Max FDP 11:00
(No other max FDP is shorter than this Acclimatised / Unacclimatised)

Sector length is < 8 Hours – No 3rd pilot required.
This is a Normal Operation, not ULR.
Crew will need Physiological Rest before next sector.

AKL – HKG,

Flt Time = 11:40
Block Time say 12:10 ish
FDP = 13:10
Winter sign on1320L (Assuming Acclimatised Crew)
MAX FDP (Table A): 13:00
Sector Length > 9 Hours – 3rd Pilot required, but can’t be legstretch as exceeds 13:00.
FDP is extended by use of Inflight Relief facilities, can’t be legstretch facilities.
min 3 hours rest (bunk or appropriate seat) required to extend FDP.
As there are only 5 time zones crossed, this is not a ULR, Just a Normal Op where FDP is extended using Inflight Rest.
Normal rest applies before their next sector.
As they are now Unacclimatised – Table B governs their next Max FDP (unless their next sector is an ULR op of course, then 13 or 18)

HKG – ANC,

Flt Time = 9:45
Block time = 10:00
FDP = 11:00
Sector length > 9 hours, - 3rd pilot required
> 6 hours time difference
This sector is an ULR op (refer definition).
Max FDP = 13:00

I agree it may be confusing, but this is it….like it or not.

[Observing]

F10,

This will make a great discussion on your next line check.

Good Luck!