Preliminary report on Cathay Pacific aircraft accident released
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hilo
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gotta agree with Jetney. There are lots of tough questions any investigators worth his/her salt will ask. Disregarding tire speed limits at 230kts would fly in the face of dire emergency. However, most people thing that high speed means heavy braking leading to fuse plug meltdowns and tire deflation...........there are more serious consequences; if a tire touches down beyond the tire limit speeds, any immediate disintegration at high speed can cause severe damage to hydraulic lines and the fuel tanks. Never forget limitations........that can bite a big chunk of your bottom!
Another thing, don't fully trust the armchair expert pen pushers in maintenance control with your lives. They are probably more interested in the EPL action than flight watch.
Another thing, don't fully trust the armchair expert pen pushers in maintenance control with your lives. They are probably more interested in the EPL action than flight watch.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scoreboard
Thanks for the information on deceleration in the air. I assume from the detail of your post you've actually tried this in the simulator with exactly the same parameters as 780.
As for your comment on continuing/returning. Would it be fair to assume that the crew would have been confronted with the same conditions on their return to SUB, the only difference being that the aircraft would have been about 20 or so tonnes heavier? Do you know what the approach speed would have been in that case? You seem to imply that they should have returned to SUB and so, considering the distance taken to stop in HKG, do you think they would have stopped within the LDA at SUB?
As far as the ECAM goes, are you referring to the first or second mentioned in the report? Only the second requires checking of other engine parameters and, from the way I read the report, that only occurred during descent.
STP
Thanks for the information on deceleration in the air. I assume from the detail of your post you've actually tried this in the simulator with exactly the same parameters as 780.
As for your comment on continuing/returning. Would it be fair to assume that the crew would have been confronted with the same conditions on their return to SUB, the only difference being that the aircraft would have been about 20 or so tonnes heavier? Do you know what the approach speed would have been in that case? You seem to imply that they should have returned to SUB and so, considering the distance taken to stop in HKG, do you think they would have stopped within the LDA at SUB?
As far as the ECAM goes, are you referring to the first or second mentioned in the report? Only the second requires checking of other engine parameters and, from the way I read the report, that only occurred during descent.
STP
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct 404, I'm glad you spotted that too, so you CX guys aren't as daft as I think, haha. 
I don't want to get into the whole whether the pilot "did the right thing" debate. What I really want to know is WHY is one engine stuck at 70%. Any engineers here? Would like to know possible reasons.
I don't want to get into the whole whether the pilot "did the right thing" debate. What I really want to know is WHY is one engine stuck at 70%. Any engineers here? Would like to know possible reasons.
Scoreboard
No it doesn't. It depends on the failure.
I wouldn’t divert purely on what the DDG says. Sure it should be referred to but your decision should be based on all the information available, including ECAM, FCOM 3, Engineering, Pilot observations etc. There are plenty of failures that are “No Dispatch” in the DDG but in FCOM 3 are “Crew Awareness” only. Have a look at some of the FADEC failures as an example. It’s all very well to sit here and criticise the captain on 780 but you weren’t there. Lastly, and I realise that the crew concerned couldn’t have known this at the time, but imagine if they did return to SUB and had the same failures on descent. They would’ve had to land about 15T over MLW on a runway that is only 9900 ft long with the obvious result that an overrun of the runway would have occurred at fairly high speed and probable loss of life. I can see the very same people that are criticising them here would be asking questions about why they diverted when it wasn’t necessary.
HKAforever
And so would I. There is speculative talk that the Trent 700 powered A330’s will default to 70% and idle if there is a dual engine stall but this is speculation as there is no written evidence to back it up.
Molokai
You seem to have a lot to say about many airlines don’t you? If you knew anything about accident/incident investigation, serious question are asked of everyone involved. Just because these questions are asked doesn’t imply guilt. It implies a thorough investigation.
in the AIR its basically implies your eng is ****.
I wouldn’t divert purely on what the DDG says. Sure it should be referred to but your decision should be based on all the information available, including ECAM, FCOM 3, Engineering, Pilot observations etc. There are plenty of failures that are “No Dispatch” in the DDG but in FCOM 3 are “Crew Awareness” only. Have a look at some of the FADEC failures as an example. It’s all very well to sit here and criticise the captain on 780 but you weren’t there. Lastly, and I realise that the crew concerned couldn’t have known this at the time, but imagine if they did return to SUB and had the same failures on descent. They would’ve had to land about 15T over MLW on a runway that is only 9900 ft long with the obvious result that an overrun of the runway would have occurred at fairly high speed and probable loss of life. I can see the very same people that are criticising them here would be asking questions about why they diverted when it wasn’t necessary.
HKAforever
What I really want to know is WHY is one engine stuck at 70%.
Molokai
You seem to have a lot to say about many airlines don’t you? If you knew anything about accident/incident investigation, serious question are asked of everyone involved. Just because these questions are asked doesn’t imply guilt. It implies a thorough investigation.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 10th May 2010 at 01:47.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
404 Titan,
Nice to see that you are defending the crew, but you are coming across as if mistakes were not made and there is nothing to be learnt from the crew's and IOC's decision making process. Only by the grace of god did the No.1 engine come up to 70%. Judging by what happened to the No.2 engine, the No.1 could have suffered the same fate, resulting in a hull loss. Ultimately they handled the situation superbly , but the chain of events began 4 hours earlier and we are here to stop the chain of events as early as possible.
Let me ask you, if next week you depart CGK and have a double EPR fluctuation at TOC with a ENG SYS CRTL FAULT, are you going to continue on a 4 hour flight to HKG or turn around back to CGK?????
We have all in the past contacted IOC/Engineering for advice/information, since they have real time access to more parameters than we do, but this highlights, yet again, that it is one person sitting on a comfortable chair on the ground with go go attitude making a decision on our behalf. If this aircraft had ditched in the South China Seas, ultimately one of the contributing factors would have been pilot error.
Nice to see that you are defending the crew, but you are coming across as if mistakes were not made and there is nothing to be learnt from the crew's and IOC's decision making process. Only by the grace of god did the No.1 engine come up to 70%. Judging by what happened to the No.2 engine, the No.1 could have suffered the same fate, resulting in a hull loss. Ultimately they handled the situation superbly , but the chain of events began 4 hours earlier and we are here to stop the chain of events as early as possible.
Let me ask you, if next week you depart CGK and have a double EPR fluctuation at TOC with a ENG SYS CRTL FAULT, are you going to continue on a 4 hour flight to HKG or turn around back to CGK?????
We have all in the past contacted IOC/Engineering for advice/information, since they have real time access to more parameters than we do, but this highlights, yet again, that it is one person sitting on a comfortable chair on the ground with go go attitude making a decision on our behalf. If this aircraft had ditched in the South China Seas, ultimately one of the contributing factors would have been pilot error.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hilo
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did I imply guilt at anytime? I take each thread post and as it comes; I do not go dwelving into other poster's profile to attack them and this is in line with respecting free speech and discussion.
And to the others suggesting that a return to SUB would have led to worser consequences..........hey, there are enroute alternate airports with longer runways and better facilities along the way to HKG.
And to the others suggesting that a return to SUB would have led to worser consequences..........hey, there are enroute alternate airports with longer runways and better facilities along the way to HKG.
Last edited by Molokai; 10th May 2010 at 04:21.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Uluru
Age: 78
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all the CX boys and ozzie boys out to defend the crew CX780, well and good. But please go not go overboard; you may just be doing them a disservice. This has been borne out in the case of Capt. Burkill of BA038. There are many well meaning posters here who are not trying to blame the crew, but are actually doing the crew a big favour by giving the them the heads up in case very close scrutiny bring up some very tough questions.
I was reading up the posts on BA038 and I came across a very insightful comment :
30th April 2008, 04:56 #82 (permalink) chintanmanis
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UAE
Age: 46
Posts: 23
Don't know much about other professions but in this airline business, NEVER, NEVER set up yourself or in any way get others to imply that you are a hero despite whatever great thing you think you may have accomplished. There a many out there EVER READY to knock you down, especially fellow pilots and airline employees who are failed pilot wannabes.
I was reading up the posts on BA038 and I came across a very insightful comment :
30th April 2008, 04:56 #82 (permalink) chintanmanis Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UAE
Age: 46
Posts: 23
Don't know much about other professions but in this airline business, NEVER, NEVER set up yourself or in any way get others to imply that you are a hero despite whatever great thing you think you may have accomplished. There a many out there EVER READY to knock you down, especially fellow pilots and airline employees who are failed pilot wannabes.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Molokai
Given what we know from the preliminary report, what would make the crew think that they needed a long runway, other than perhaps being in an overweight landing situation? I think your point about a long runway comes from knowing what happened on arrival in HKG, as does my question to Scoreboard regarding a successful stop within the LDA at SUB.
STP
And to the others suggesting that a return to SUB would have led to worser consequences..........hey, there are enroute alternate airports with longer runways and better facilities along the way to HKG.
STP
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
404-
Yeah, I have heard of that dual engine stall rumour as well. But I agree that's pure speculation and hard to substantiate at this point. I can't recall off the top of my head, but I remember reading somewhere about Trent engines experiencing something like this, but it was in an obscure aviation journal a long time ago, so I can't remember the details beyond a vague similarity to this incident.
Yeah, I have heard of that dual engine stall rumour as well. But I agree that's pure speculation and hard to substantiate at this point. I can't recall off the top of my head, but I remember reading somewhere about Trent engines experiencing something like this, but it was in an obscure aviation journal a long time ago, so I can't remember the details beyond a vague similarity to this incident.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired-ville
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dragon69
I think I know what you are getting at, and if you substitute decision for advice, then I'm with you.
Once the aircraft is on its way, in consultation with the other crew, I make the decision about where the aircraft will go, when it goes, and how we do it. Sure I take note of advice from the ground that is either offered or asked for, but they do not decide.
That is why I face the subsequent board of enquiry if it all goes pear shaped.
that it is one person sitting on a comfortable chair on the ground with go go attitude making a decision on our behalf
Once the aircraft is on its way, in consultation with the other crew, I make the decision about where the aircraft will go, when it goes, and how we do it. Sure I take note of advice from the ground that is either offered or asked for, but they do not decide.
That is why I face the subsequent board of enquiry if it all goes pear shaped.
Dragon69
I agree with you in that there are lessons to be learnt from this incident. For the record I haven’t at any stage said mistakes weren’t made. We all make mistakes everyday and I’m sure this crew given the time over again would do some things differently. This isn’t saying that they got it wrong because from my prospective they have made the right decision given the information and advice on the day.
Would I continue on a 4 hour or any flight for that matter with the same EPR fluctuations and ENG SYS CTL FAULT if it happened next week? Probably not but being forearmed armed is being forewarned, something the crew of 780 didn’t have on the 13th April. If I had the same problems but before the 13th April, I honestly can’t see why I would have handled it any differently to this crew.
As for IOC/ENG, they can advise me but they don’t make any decisions for me. In the two times I have been involved in a diversion due mechanical reasons, I have found them quite conservative.
I agree with you in that there are lessons to be learnt from this incident. For the record I haven’t at any stage said mistakes weren’t made. We all make mistakes everyday and I’m sure this crew given the time over again would do some things differently. This isn’t saying that they got it wrong because from my prospective they have made the right decision given the information and advice on the day.
Would I continue on a 4 hour or any flight for that matter with the same EPR fluctuations and ENG SYS CTL FAULT if it happened next week? Probably not but being forearmed armed is being forewarned, something the crew of 780 didn’t have on the 13th April. If I had the same problems but before the 13th April, I honestly can’t see why I would have handled it any differently to this crew.
As for IOC/ENG, they can advise me but they don’t make any decisions for me. In the two times I have been involved in a diversion due mechanical reasons, I have found them quite conservative.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Smogsville
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all we know the fault up at altitude may have been the best place for it and it was the act of descending that brought on further failures, the fact they continued may have been the best decision.
Until we know the reasons, I wouldn't jump to diverting to a 9000ft runway as all the Monday morning quarterbacks are going to say it was just an EPR fluctuation they should have continued.
No lives lost, no hull loss =
Until we know the reasons, I wouldn't jump to diverting to a 9000ft runway as all the Monday morning quarterbacks are going to say it was just an EPR fluctuation they should have continued.
No lives lost, no hull loss =
Two engines with major malfunctions...
Landed and stopped the aircraft on a runway...
No lives lost...
A few busted tyres and burnt brakes...
It sounds like a pretty good outcome to me.
I am in love with this aircrew and their prowess!
Who the hell are these other Johnnie-come-lately wankers pontificating on the actions of the aircrew with the benefit of hindsight...and they are still getting it wrong?
Idiots..!
Landed and stopped the aircraft on a runway...
No lives lost...
A few busted tyres and burnt brakes...
It sounds like a pretty good outcome to me.
I am in love with this aircrew and their prowess!
Who the hell are these other Johnnie-come-lately wankers pontificating on the actions of the aircrew with the benefit of hindsight...and they are still getting it wrong?
Idiots..!
Molokai
Let’s have a look at these en-route airports:
WALL = 8202 ft
WBGG = 12402 ft
WSBS = 12001 ft
WBKK = 9800 ft
RPLL = 11188 ft
RPLC = 10499 ft
As 780 took 11500 ft to come to a stop in VHHH we can ignore all but WBGG and WSBS. Looking at the fuel figures from the flight if they had landed at anyone of these two airports they would have landed about 2 – 5 T over MLW and about 14 T heavier than they landed in VHHH. Are you confident they would have pulled up in the LDA with the same failures?
Let’s have a look at these en-route airports:
WALL = 8202 ft
WBGG = 12402 ft
WSBS = 12001 ft
WBKK = 9800 ft
RPLL = 11188 ft
RPLC = 10499 ft
As 780 took 11500 ft to come to a stop in VHHH we can ignore all but WBGG and WSBS. Looking at the fuel figures from the flight if they had landed at anyone of these two airports they would have landed about 2 – 5 T over MLW and about 14 T heavier than they landed in VHHH. Are you confident they would have pulled up in the LDA with the same failures?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hilo
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are assuming that they were going to get the same failure scenario then, and assuming the crew performed exactly like they did at VHHH.......well they might not have stopped within that distance. Assume, making an ass of u & me just to win an argument.
I am saying another crew will not tackle the problem the way these guys did, period!
I am saying another crew will not tackle the problem the way these guys did, period!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nanaimo
Age: 75
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Small wonder that an earlier thread on this incident was removed; it degenerated into pissing arguments amongst posters.
Years ago I walked away from a job with SQ because I was shocked that during a TV press interview when a reporter asked a seemingly innocent question ( albeit a bit politically sensitive ) the government official handling the interview countered with an attack on the reporter's background without so much as even coming close to addressing the question.....seemed he already did a dossier on the poor journalist! And of I thought that was scary and I did not want to remain working in that place! Seeing how titan might have probed into Molokai's profile or previous posts remind me precisely of that! Yikes!
potteroo brought up something very wise. Much as we wish the crew well, let's not put them on a pedestal only to be targets later.
Years ago I walked away from a job with SQ because I was shocked that during a TV press interview when a reporter asked a seemingly innocent question ( albeit a bit politically sensitive ) the government official handling the interview countered with an attack on the reporter's background without so much as even coming close to addressing the question.....seemed he already did a dossier on the poor journalist! And of I thought that was scary and I did not want to remain working in that place! Seeing how titan might have probed into Molokai's profile or previous posts remind me precisely of that! Yikes!
potteroo brought up something very wise. Much as we wish the crew well, let's not put them on a pedestal only to be targets later.
Monday morning Quarterbacks really are a Blot on the Landscape and our profession
To speculate what else could or might occur under various scenarios is fair enough and all can learn from that.
The accusations and conclusions that some make are inexcusable and show an ignorance and lack of experience that I never want to fly with
To speculate what else could or might occur under various scenarios is fair enough and all can learn from that
.The accusations and conclusions that some make are inexcusable and show an ignorance and lack of experience that I never want to fly with
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Isle of Wight
Age: 55
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poor crew of CX780; with friends like these looking for the 15 seconds of fame to vent the supposedly " superior " abilities, they don't need hard nose investigators. Potteroomore and totempole, don't waste your time counselling these " friends " of the crew.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lantau, Hong Kong
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, 404 Titan and HKAforever, I too want to really know how it is stuck at 70%. But I don't pretend to know enough to sprout theories and rumours on this. But maybe someone here knows more and can offer some theory on this?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Answer
Aircraft intact, everyone lives, what more do you want?
RR must be very relieved that they now have the engines back in Derby and can examine them in minute detail to discover what happened. AI didn't need another unexplained hull loss either; if it had ended up in the South China Sea, even if found, vital clues would have been lost. The fuel remaining in the tanks can be carefully analysed too, hint hint nudge nudge, say no more squire.
RR must be very relieved that they now have the engines back in Derby and can examine them in minute detail to discover what happened. AI didn't need another unexplained hull loss either; if it had ended up in the South China Sea, even if found, vital clues would have been lost. The fuel remaining in the tanks can be carefully analysed too, hint hint nudge nudge, say no more squire.