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HDP - thin end of the wedge.

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HDP - thin end of the wedge.

Old 28th Mar 2010, 11:11
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 52
HDP - thin end of the wedge.

The DFO's recent statement regarding the cabin crew mentioned that the company now employ 60% of cabin crew on Hourly Duty Pay.

Several years ago the company also introduced HDP for flight crew. At that time it was in lieu of a pay rise. There has been no payrise since.

This is merely a start. HDP is not provident fundable. Future pay rises are likely to be only to the HDP component of salary.

Consider ourselves in 10 - 15 years from now. Inflation will have eroded basic salary much further than it already has, making it simply a "retainer" portion of annual income. HDP will be the bulk of our income.

During a downturn, the company will not need to offer SLS, they will simply roster less hours. Being unfit for duty will have no impact on the company, you will just earn less.

For a sneak preview of how this will all work, just speak to one of the 60% of cabin crew who have now found themselves on this system. Don't think it won't have to us. It already has. We are all currently on it, only the thin end. Many US Majors are paid HPD with no other component to their pay as standard practice.
Rice Pudding is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2010, 15:59
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Join Date: May 2006
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We will all be fighting to do 110 hours a month to make cash for those trips to wan chai...
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Old 31st Mar 2010, 08:47
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Yes you have got that right. The cabin crew on HDP do that now.

In fact you can easily see what the long term plan is - in a few years time the new international cadets will be doing a short course (4 weeks) if they are eligible (say 3000 hours plus) and will attract only a base housing allowance if they are lucky. In other words, they will have the same qualifications and experience as those who joined 5-10 years ago, but no housing to match.

The LEP's are not going to get the housing they want, simply because that would set a precedent that management don't want. If they did, then they would not have withdrawn the housing from the international cadets. Its not about getting more pilots, its only about saving money on the housing.

And all of us will have a major component of our pay as HDP. And that will make us want to work harder - not because we love the work, but because it will be the only way to get our basic income. Afterall, thats is exactly what is happening now for the cabin crew.
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Old 1st Apr 2010, 21:55
  #4 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 197
Should the Company and FAU come to some sort of agreement whereby the Company pays HDP to 100% of the cabin crew, expect the outcome to be a "sign o' the times" for us.

I agree, we will be required to work harder to earn our current pay cheques, which leads into issues of fatigue etc. The limitation will be based on FTLs and how fit One is.
Hellenic aviator is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2010, 23:56
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Posts: 298
Probably why we should grow some balls and next time the company tries to "negotiate" a restructured pay deal with a greater component of HDP (and sells it as a pay rise), we do what the FAU just did.
asianeagle is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2010, 02:41
  #6 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In your mind.
Posts: 138
I am not trying to be overly macho, or sound tough. However, the fact for me personally is that I am already at a breaking point. I see this job for what it is. I see having to strike in the future and am prepared to do so. If it doesn't help or I am fired for striking I am fully prepared to leave. I also do not want to be in the left seat, and not be able to look my FO/SO in the eye because of the conditions I LET happen to him (aka A Scalers). I do, however not think I am alone and that does give me some hope. It is actually pretty freeing to be prepared to leave.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 03:00
  #7 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 513

I take umbrage with your comment regarding A scale pilots letting you down.

The A scales tried to take the Company to task in 99 but were faced with a management that WANTED a fight. Although the B scalers, thankfully, joined the fight, ultimately it resulted in 49 pilots being fired.

That you are at your wits end is understandable, and feel free to comment on industrial relations since you joined, but I won't allow you to pass judgement, with a broad stroke, demeaning those of us who took the risks and saw 49 of our friends cast to the wind.

Last edited by raven11; 2nd Apr 2010 at 03:41.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 06:16
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N. America
Posts: 52
I like your outlook, Rook. IMO, none of us should ever be so beholden to our employer that we fear for our financial future with the temporary loss of our income, or the fear to do what is right or nescessary to uphold our values, self respect, or sense of worth. That goes for anyone in any occupation I suppose. Live within your means, save for a rainy day, whatever you want to call it. Financial independence is more important than that fancy new car, big house, etc. Contrary to popular belief (or company desire I'm sure), don't focus all of your time and attention on aviation. Learn new skills, network with others outside the profession, develop a side income - in essence, become more well rounded. I always feel sorry for some poor chap on the occation I sit next to him for hours on end who has nothing to talk about outside of flying airplanes. Sitting in an aluminum tube for 80 hours a month is just a JOB, afterall!

On the upside (for sake of this arguement anyway), pilot jobs all over the world are getting easier and easier to repace WRT income. For example, my neighbor kid makes the same daily $$$ as I do as a COS08 FO. What did he bring to his employer's table? A high school diploma and a healthy attitude and desire to succeed.

Last edited by Mooseflyer; 2nd Apr 2010 at 06:26.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 08:40
  #9 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In your mind.
Posts: 138
Raven11- Perhaps my brush stroke was too thick. I realize not all think the same and that the situation was complicated.
I do however, think we shouldn't make the same mistakes again. Sticking together and standing up to the company is the only path I see with a positive future at the end.
Rook is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2010, 15:41
  #10 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 145
Nick has been trying to convert us to HDP since he took over. It would prove disastrous to individual pilots. Can you imagine being marginalised on roster hours so that your pay constantly fell below expected monthly averages? Wouldn't put it past them to 'under roster' people they didn't like...
Tornado Ali is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2010, 04:36
  #11 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 94
Rook said
because of the conditions I LET happen to him (aka A Scalers)
If you are B scale, quite simply - you let it happen to yourself.
If no pilots took the job on a B scale salary, there would have been no B scale, it's that simple.
This topic has been done to death in the past, and is hardly relevant to the gradually increasing HDP wedge that is one of many unwanted insertions we have been on the receiving end of.
Basic salary increases should be insisted on, and HDP left to wither on the vine.
mephisto88 is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2010, 06:05
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 197

Basic salary increases should be insisted on, and HDP left to wither on the vine.

At LEAST 8.5%, just like our DFO - what's good for the goose....
Hellenic aviator is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2010, 06:21
  #13 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
HDP "incentivises" crew to fly more and in doing so makes it more difficult for them to complain about fatiguing rosters because in doing so they would be giving themselves a pay cut. It's not just pay that's at issue here, it's the ability to make a stand against dubious safety practices.

Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2010, 18:17
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cal E For Nia
Posts: 43
Yes, and HDP is another way to guarantee you are paid less on months you go on leave.
Sike is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2010, 05:17
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 1
HDP will result in a pay loss for most of us, as the company will construct the concept to ensure that we will work the same as we do now for less renumeration. This is an idea which must never be accepted.
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