SLS to be paid back in March
BlueEng
How can someone giving you money be screwing you??
The owners of this company did not paid any cash towards the shortfall of operating profit during the GFC.
It was the employees that sacrificed cash, after veiled threats and intimidation made by management!!!!!!!!!
If there is a repayment of SLS (which I doubt will happen), minus any provident fundable parts, as an gratia-payment. Then I will have given up more money than most staff did in SLS.
BlueEng, you may be happy to bend over for management, but I am not.
Unbelievable
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Flap10
Ahh, good old Camus. But to quote him again:
and:
Personally, I prefer Immanuel Kant - he was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
STP
Ahh, good old Camus. But to quote him again:
Martyrs, my friend, have to choose between being forgotten, mocked or used. As for being understood - never.
Every revolutionary ends up either by becoming an oppressor or a heretic
STP
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Fly123456
It's all perception and no doubt falls on partisan lines.
Big generalization, but most HK based crew consider that they are paid 13 months of salary for 12 months work; as is (was) the way of HK. They consider the non-payment of 13th month as an 8.3% enforced pay-cut.. pure and simple.
In the UK, Europe, US etc you are paid 52 weeks, 26 fortnights or 12 months salary for 1 years work; that is the way of such countries. At the risk of confusing you, the parallel situation would be that you "volunteered" SLS and then didn't receive your December salary because the company had an unsatisfactory year and then the HK staff suggested that everyone be repaid SLS and you will get your December salary if there is some money left in the pot.... would you be a bit erked?
As an aside, those FO's on B scale based in the UK, or on a salary expressed as percentage of B Scale UK FO, had their salary scale grossed up in 1999 to include 13th month. So if you are on such a payscale, then you effectively receive 13th month (or a large %) every year....... make you feel better?
I have no idea what the should or will do? If they feel motivated to do anything (which I doubt), I imagine they will do an ex-gratia payment of $HK30,000 or repayment of SLS, whichever is the lesser. That will keep the majority happy and provide best bang4bucks.....
Big generalization, but most HK based crew consider that they are paid 13 months of salary for 12 months work; as is (was) the way of HK. They consider the non-payment of 13th month as an 8.3% enforced pay-cut.. pure and simple.
In the UK, Europe, US etc you are paid 52 weeks, 26 fortnights or 12 months salary for 1 years work; that is the way of such countries. At the risk of confusing you, the parallel situation would be that you "volunteered" SLS and then didn't receive your December salary because the company had an unsatisfactory year and then the HK staff suggested that everyone be repaid SLS and you will get your December salary if there is some money left in the pot.... would you be a bit erked?
As an aside, those FO's on B scale based in the UK, or on a salary expressed as percentage of B Scale UK FO, had their salary scale grossed up in 1999 to include 13th month. So if you are on such a payscale, then you effectively receive 13th month (or a large %) every year....... make you feel better?
I have no idea what the should or will do? If they feel motivated to do anything (which I doubt), I imagine they will do an ex-gratia payment of $HK30,000 or repayment of SLS, whichever is the lesser. That will keep the majority happy and provide best bang4bucks.....
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I have no idea what the should or will do? If they feel motivated to do anything (which I doubt), I imagine they will do an ex-gratia payment of $HK30,000 or repayment of SLS, whichever is the lesser. That will keep the majority happy and provide best bang4bucks.....
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If there is any cash left over, management have proven their worth through this tough period with stellar fuel hedging etc and should pat themselves on the back and give themselves a nice big bonus! 
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ForwardCofG,
No deduction was made from the provident fund payment. Each month you received full provident fund contribution as if there had been no SLS deduction.
Chill...
No deduction was made from the provident fund payment. Each month you received full provident fund contribution as if there had been no SLS deduction.
Chill...
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Hey Sqwak
If they do pay SLS back then those that did sign up will have had up to 4 weeks leave for free. What did you get?
STP
If they do pay SLS back then those that did sign up will have had up to 4 weeks leave for free. What did you get?
STP
Grow a sack and stop working for free, you are cheapening our profession.
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Hi Sqwak
I assume you mean you kept your integrity which is good. A fair amount of overtime is also good - well done. Personally, I too love working 6 days straight followed by a day off and then another 6 days before I can spend some quality time with my family telling them how much EFP I've earned while the collaborators are on the beach...
However, how you can possibly infer from my question that I work for free is completely beyond me. In fact, how you can infer that I took SLS is also beyond me. I suppose had I phrased my question: "Hey Sqwak, blah, blah, blah. What did WE get?" you would have assumed that I was indeed a brother-in-arms and that my sack is as big as yours.
Defiance takes many forms and the one that you choose might not necessarily suit another so peace out brother (or sister, as I certainly don't want to be accused of making a sexist assumption if indeed you don't have a sack).
STP
I assume you mean you kept your integrity which is good. A fair amount of overtime is also good - well done. Personally, I too love working 6 days straight followed by a day off and then another 6 days before I can spend some quality time with my family telling them how much EFP I've earned while the collaborators are on the beach...
However, how you can possibly infer from my question that I work for free is completely beyond me. In fact, how you can infer that I took SLS is also beyond me. I suppose had I phrased my question: "Hey Sqwak, blah, blah, blah. What did WE get?" you would have assumed that I was indeed a brother-in-arms and that my sack is as big as yours.
Defiance takes many forms and the one that you choose might not necessarily suit another so peace out brother (or sister, as I certainly don't want to be accused of making a sexist assumption if indeed you don't have a sack).
STP
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Took SLS happily.
Spent 3 weeks on the beach and at Disney in FL, US with my kids.
had a ball, and it was priceless.
If we get it some of it back, great. If not, I'd do it again for the time.. KA isn't CX.. there's no big blocks of leave . If I get 3 G's in a row I'm excited.
If you didn't take it, bully on you.. I'll have yours thanks.. cause my kids will always remember the time we had, and so will I.
I work to provide a life and a future for my family.. balance.
Spent 3 weeks on the beach and at Disney in FL, US with my kids.
had a ball, and it was priceless.
If we get it some of it back, great. If not, I'd do it again for the time.. KA isn't CX.. there's no big blocks of leave . If I get 3 G's in a row I'm excited.
If you didn't take it, bully on you.. I'll have yours thanks.. cause my kids will always remember the time we had, and so will I.
I work to provide a life and a future for my family.. balance.
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Well, I guess I see your points. I never really considered that someone would take SLS purely for the fact that they wanted time off. I thought about taking some for that same reason, but unlike Dragonair, Cathay made no guarantee that I could take all the weeks together.
They told me that they would make an "effort" to give it in 1 week blocks. Effort of 1 week blocks was just not good enough for me and I looked at it as an opportunity for Cathay to work-stack my roster. This, to me, made SLS look more like a pay-cut rather than unpaid leave from work.
But I'll give you that if you got the long block of time off with the family all at once, I do agree, that would be worth doing and I would not mind if they did not pay me back for it.
They told me that they would make an "effort" to give it in 1 week blocks. Effort of 1 week blocks was just not good enough for me and I looked at it as an opportunity for Cathay to work-stack my roster. This, to me, made SLS look more like a pay-cut rather than unpaid leave from work.
But I'll give you that if you got the long block of time off with the family all at once, I do agree, that would be worth doing and I would not mind if they did not pay me back for it.
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Err, excuse me for intruding in your entertaining tête à tête. Dragonair were NOT given ANY promises about blocks of SLS. It was clearly stated to us that they would make every attempt lah, but no commmitments could be made.
In my case, I was assigned two 2 week blocks (which have not yet been taken)
Back to round 4, or is it 5?
In my case, I was assigned two 2 week blocks (which have not yet been taken)
Back to round 4, or is it 5?
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I think most of you miss the salient point in this issue: if those of us who chose not to co-operate with SLS are proven to have been the 'smart' ones, then any future request from the company for another SLS type scheme would be met with far fewer participants. For the company to have an effective method of attaining the help of it's employees, they must be seen to be 'fair' in recompensing the employees when the situation turns for the better. That is the reason the company will refund most if not all of the money in question.
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If 6 weeks of annual leave isn't enough to have a quality vacation with your family, then perhaps a change in carreer is overdue.
If the solution to poor rostering is through SLS, what hope do we have of ever improving our rosters.
If the majority of the aircrew accept SLS, and take repeated paycuts, what hope do we have of ever improving our salaries.
AAIGUY,
You bitch about salaries in previous posts and forums and yet you state here that you'll happily take SLS again. Well you've sent a clear message to management if you are willing to continually part with your money...you're simply overpaid!!
Interestingly enough when the unpaid leave scheme was started, a scheme were the terms were more favorable, only a very low percentage of aircrew opted for it. Quality time with family didn't seem to be an issue then. When the company forced SLS upon the aircrew with veiled threats, 97% signed up....you draw your own conclusions.
If the solution to poor rostering is through SLS, what hope do we have of ever improving our rosters.
If the majority of the aircrew accept SLS, and take repeated paycuts, what hope do we have of ever improving our salaries.
AAIGUY,
You bitch about salaries in previous posts and forums and yet you state here that you'll happily take SLS again. Well you've sent a clear message to management if you are willing to continually part with your money...you're simply overpaid!!
Interestingly enough when the unpaid leave scheme was started, a scheme were the terms were more favorable, only a very low percentage of aircrew opted for it. Quality time with family didn't seem to be an issue then. When the company forced SLS upon the aircrew with veiled threats, 97% signed up....you draw your own conclusions.
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Legality
There may be some legal issues. The 13th month is a contractual payment. SLS re-payment is not. Thirteenth month can only be withheld if profit thresholds are not met. If it turns out that those profit thresholds were met, and 13th month was witheld then it is a serious breach of our COS. One that has much more serious consequences for those of us in Hong Kong. IMHO it is more of a long term worry than whether or not we get SLS back.
SLS may not be given back and there is no contractual or legal reason to force the co. to do otherwise. Hopefully SLS was a one off and is not going to be used anytime soon. The company was very quick to deduct pay from us in a down economy and they are very slow to give profit share in years of record profit.
For those on a base that took SLS, SLS re-payment first is clearly better, however if you look at it from a business point of view, you made a deal and got what was on offer, with no guarentees. 13th month is part of Hong Kong Crew's contract and if it is not paid back the Hong Kong crew have a right to challenge that in court.
In an ideal world remainder of 13th month paid in full first and then SLS repaid.
Of course profitability would have to be above the savings made through SLS !!
SLS may not be given back and there is no contractual or legal reason to force the co. to do otherwise. Hopefully SLS was a one off and is not going to be used anytime soon. The company was very quick to deduct pay from us in a down economy and they are very slow to give profit share in years of record profit.
For those on a base that took SLS, SLS re-payment first is clearly better, however if you look at it from a business point of view, you made a deal and got what was on offer, with no guarentees. 13th month is part of Hong Kong Crew's contract and if it is not paid back the Hong Kong crew have a right to challenge that in court.
In an ideal world remainder of 13th month paid in full first and then SLS repaid.
Of course profitability would have to be above the savings made through SLS !!
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Actually no. The 13th month is paid solely at the company's discretion. It is also paid in December. If the company 'subsequently' (ie: after December) decide that revenues/profits are recovering to a suitable level, the company can make any decision in respect of SLS/Profit sharing they wish. The decision on 13th month has come and gone. SLS however was an 'emergency' measure that would obviously be revisited when the company's finances had recovered. SARS was a similar situation. As I mentioned earlier, the company would want to reserve the opportunity to launch similar schemes in the future if needed. If they are not seen to 'play fair' after the fact, they would have an impossible task in convincing employees to partake. Furthermore, to not refund a substantial portion of it would demonstrate that the 'dissidents' were right NOT to participate...and i'm sure that isn't the message that CX mgmt would want to be learned....
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They'll either pay SLS or profit share... I'm not counting on both.
And if they only pay profit share then they'll have managed to make eternally disgruntled employees out of the SLS crowd. But then it sounds just like something they would do...
And if they only pay profit share then they'll have managed to make eternally disgruntled employees out of the SLS crowd. But then it sounds just like something they would do...
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SLS = Paycut 
Work x number of weeks less and get paid for x number of weeks less. That is not a paycut.
If you actually worked for x number of weeks and did not get paid for x number of weeks then that would be a paycut.
Flap 10, your pomposity is staggering. 6 weeks with my kids is nowhere near enough. I would spend 52 weeks of the year with them if I could. I guess it's your business if you value money/work ahead of your loved ones. I'm sure that when your time comes and you are lying on your deathbed that you will be wishing "gee, I wish I spent more time at work"
The added time with my kids and outa H.K. has enriched all our lives immensely. If SLS is repaid that is a bonus, if not then c'est la vie and I have wonderful memories that will sustain me when my turn comes
Work x number of weeks less and get paid for x number of weeks less. That is not a paycut.If you actually worked for x number of weeks and did not get paid for x number of weeks then that would be a paycut.
Flap 10, your pomposity is staggering. 6 weeks with my kids is nowhere near enough. I would spend 52 weeks of the year with them if I could. I guess it's your business if you value money/work ahead of your loved ones. I'm sure that when your time comes and you are lying on your deathbed that you will be wishing "gee, I wish I spent more time at work"
The added time with my kids and outa H.K. has enriched all our lives immensely. If SLS is repaid that is a bonus, if not then c'est la vie and I have wonderful memories that will sustain me when my turn comes