BEKOL restrictions
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BEKOL restrictions
OK what prompted the SCMP to run that article about the 4,800 meter BEKOL restriction today. hardly new news. and again, not that well reported... not to mention 15 minutes is a bit of an exaggeration!
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how is it an exaggeration? only 15 minutes delay is a fast getaway for A461! It's not just the 'great wall' 4800m restriction though, what the article misses entirely is the massive gulf between ICAO separation standards and Chinese separation standards. It's a lateral choke as well as vertical.
Next time every airport in northern China is closed for the day they could investigate what happens in other countries when it snows (...nothing...)
It's great to see some mass media exposure for the inefficiencies of aviation in our neighbourhood. But as with everything Chinese, it's all constantly improving
Next time every airport in northern China is closed for the day they could investigate what happens in other countries when it snows (...nothing...)
It's great to see some mass media exposure for the inefficiencies of aviation in our neighbourhood. But as with everything Chinese, it's all constantly improving
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Whilst on the subject of ATC ( or lack there of ) is it just me, or do the new super, quick arrivals through SIERA etc just stuff up the A/C coming through DOTMI 
So far I have had 100% rooting around through DOTMI, either ridiculous speed reductions ( starting at 250 and ending at 180 ) or " S " turns through track between DOTMI and MUSEL. I even had 15 minutes holding the other day, wx at HK was not bad, and when we finally got to approach, there was no
around 
Seems that all these new arrivals have done is made more A/C arrive in the same area at once which HK ATC don't seem to be able to handle.
Don't get me wrong, the SIERA arrivals were a crock of 5hit, but they just seem to have robbed Peter to pay Paul
So far I have had 100% rooting around through DOTMI, either ridiculous speed reductions ( starting at 250 and ending at 180 ) or " S " turns through track between DOTMI and MUSEL. I even had 15 minutes holding the other day, wx at HK was not bad, and when we finally got to approach, there was no
around Seems that all these new arrivals have done is made more A/C arrive in the same area at once which HK ATC don't seem to be able to handle.
Don't get me wrong, the SIERA arrivals were a crock of 5hit, but they just seem to have robbed Peter to pay Paul
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Captncannot,
Well in the North East of Scotland,when it snows the airport authority go out with snow clearing trucks and clear it.It can cause distruption depending on how much snow has fallen,showers or a real dumping.We do the best we can to keep it all moving,and from an ATC point of view is hard work.Also getting to work through the snow can be fun as well.
Having tried to fathom out the Bekol blockages in the past,it was best described as ATC drawn up on the back of a fag packet,every night.The separations changed from day to day.
I explained the Bekol blockage separation system to other UK controllers,and they fell off their chairs laughing.Say no more.
Well in the North East of Scotland,when it snows the airport authority go out with snow clearing trucks and clear it.It can cause distruption depending on how much snow has fallen,showers or a real dumping.We do the best we can to keep it all moving,and from an ATC point of view is hard work.Also getting to work through the snow can be fun as well.
Having tried to fathom out the Bekol blockages in the past,it was best described as ATC drawn up on the back of a fag packet,every night.The separations changed from day to day.
I explained the Bekol blockage separation system to other UK controllers,and they fell off their chairs laughing.Say no more.
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The article yesterday was more about the fl 4,800m restriction (the wall) which, given the fact that departing flights are kept to 9,000 ft by tango delta, sometimes they have to do extra track miles to make the fl 4,800 meter minimum by bekol. given that this situation has been in existance for so long, i was curious as to why it burst out onto the front page of the SCMP yesterday. the 15 minutes the articlenwas referring to was not an ATCO delay but the time it takes to do the extra track miles to able 4,800m by bekol. that was the exaggeration i thought. but obviously there are a million other issues regarding flying into chinese airspace
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Hongkongfooey,
We came though SIERA on Saturday and explicitly asked ATC whether 280 at SIERA meant exactly 280 or maximum 280.
They replied it's maximum 280.
Also it is a "Speed Limit Point", ie there is a limit there, a maximum or a minimum value, as opposed to an exact requirement.
I need to ask a few more ATC blokes but I think SIERA has just been been rolled in with all the other inbound point speed limits with no real consideration given to the SIERA arrival's intricacies, espcecially if you are cut in. I'm guessing we will see a change soon to "Max 280 kts"
So I flew my normal 250/FL190 at SIERA in anticipation of track shortening. ATC had no problem with that. Still ended up being given the new 5C due to the guy in front of us slowing down early.
We came though SIERA on Saturday and explicitly asked ATC whether 280 at SIERA meant exactly 280 or maximum 280.
They replied it's maximum 280.
Also it is a "Speed Limit Point", ie there is a limit there, a maximum or a minimum value, as opposed to an exact requirement.
I need to ask a few more ATC blokes but I think SIERA has just been been rolled in with all the other inbound point speed limits with no real consideration given to the SIERA arrival's intricacies, espcecially if you are cut in. I'm guessing we will see a change soon to "Max 280 kts"
So I flew my normal 250/FL190 at SIERA in anticipation of track shortening. ATC had no problem with that. Still ended up being given the new 5C due to the guy in front of us slowing down early.
Lets see. The STAR plate clearly states:
SPEED CONTROL
Aircraft shall fly at 280 KIAS by SIERA
And then you are surprised that you:
Enough said.
SPEED CONTROL
Aircraft shall fly at 280 KIAS by SIERA
So I flew my normal 250/FL190 at SIERA
Still ended up being given the new 5C due to the guy in front of us slowing down early
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Thanks for the feedback JR, ours and CXs descent speed is 300IAS to 10000 so I guess we would be expected to do be doing the max, ie 280 at the SLP.
I think 250 at DOTMI, ( circa 200nms to run ), 230 prior to MUSEL and then " S " turns through track are a bit rich and it seems to be worse since the shortening of the other STARs, this is of course on top of being ( in general ) 7-8000' below normal profile.
I think 250 at DOTMI, ( circa 200nms to run ), 230 prior to MUSEL and then " S " turns through track are a bit rich and it seems to be worse since the shortening of the other STARs, this is of course on top of being ( in general ) 7-8000' below normal profile.
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Crossed wires perhaps?
Heard from a "Birdseed mate" that both them and CX251 bound for LHR had commenced taxi, when a very embarassed and apologetic Ground Contoller informed them of a hitherto unpublished, short notice flow control introduced by China on their route. The restriction was not FL dependant and resulted in a small delay for CX251 and a 40 min delay for the Speedbird. The Speedbird parked on J, adjacent the 25L hold, and shut down 2 engines.
This all happened about a week ago. Could this be what the SCMP was referring to?
Good time to be on SLS methinks.....
This all happened about a week ago. Could this be what the SCMP was referring to?
Good time to be on SLS methinks.....
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Word from ATC is its only going to get worse.
Zhuhai approach are going to raise their upper limit (which is the reason we have to jump 4800M) so 5100M will prob be on the cards next.
Probably puts paid to the 340 doing 253!
Zhuhai approach are going to raise their upper limit (which is the reason we have to jump 4800M) so 5100M will prob be on the cards next.
Probably puts paid to the 340 doing 253!
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LapSap, not sure of your point nor reason for the headbutt?
(1) The Jepp chart I use (10-2J 9 Oct 09 eff 22 Oct, and admittedly is tailored for my airline) does not anywhere "clearly state SPEED CONTROL Aircraft shall fly at 280 KIAS by SIERA". What it does say is "SLP SIERA" and "280 kt". That can be intrepreted as meaning either 280 at SIERA or a limit speed of 280 at SIERA.
(2) When in doubt, ask. So: ATC, when asked what it meant, replied 280 was a MAXIMUM. And they ok'd 250 over SIERA.
(3) The European carrier ahead of us obviously was even slower than 250 past SIERA, hence us being given extra track miles. No big drama. Would have still been a problem if we'd been been at 280 behind him at SIERA (us 280, him slowing to 250, indeed probably less from the sound of it). But again, no drama, that's aviation. The 5C (or vectors) is there for that sort of thing.
(4) Unless you are flying the Space Shuttle, crossing SIERA at FL190 and then being cut in for 50 odd track miles, beng at 280 kts at SIERA doesn't cut it. Well, not on the 744. It's nonsense. If you are going to be held high, you need to slow down, then convert height to speed while getting down. Flying 101. If ATC want nice, tight short arrivals early in the morning onto 07L/R, then 280 will have to be a max, not an "at" speed. Or we will just have to require extra track miles inside HKG airspace. Anyway, as I said , ATC had no problem, we didn't, nobody else did, only you seem to.
Anyway, just relaying my piece of info/experience for the greater common knowledge. Take it anyway you like.
(1) The Jepp chart I use (10-2J 9 Oct 09 eff 22 Oct, and admittedly is tailored for my airline) does not anywhere "clearly state SPEED CONTROL Aircraft shall fly at 280 KIAS by SIERA". What it does say is "SLP SIERA" and "280 kt". That can be intrepreted as meaning either 280 at SIERA or a limit speed of 280 at SIERA.
(2) When in doubt, ask. So: ATC, when asked what it meant, replied 280 was a MAXIMUM. And they ok'd 250 over SIERA.
(3) The European carrier ahead of us obviously was even slower than 250 past SIERA, hence us being given extra track miles. No big drama. Would have still been a problem if we'd been been at 280 behind him at SIERA (us 280, him slowing to 250, indeed probably less from the sound of it). But again, no drama, that's aviation. The 5C (or vectors) is there for that sort of thing.
(4) Unless you are flying the Space Shuttle, crossing SIERA at FL190 and then being cut in for 50 odd track miles, beng at 280 kts at SIERA doesn't cut it. Well, not on the 744. It's nonsense. If you are going to be held high, you need to slow down, then convert height to speed while getting down. Flying 101. If ATC want nice, tight short arrivals early in the morning onto 07L/R, then 280 will have to be a max, not an "at" speed. Or we will just have to require extra track miles inside HKG airspace. Anyway, as I said , ATC had no problem, we didn't, nobody else did, only you seem to.
Anyway, just relaying my piece of info/experience for the greater common knowledge. Take it anyway you like.
Jay Arr
Yes I apologise for the slight angst there.
Its just that we've had hammered into us for the past few weeks that the new Stars were supposed to reduce the amount of second-guessing that went on from both sides with the Siera arrivals. You wondered what we're going to do with you and we wondered what speed you're doing and if you'd be able to get down.
The guys who designed it flew it in the CX sim and tell us that the track mileage is right for a reasonable VNAV profile.
We've been told not to track shorten unless its absolutely dead quiet as they're (CAD management and the AOs) sick of the number of go-arounds caused by unstable approaches.
As for the wild vectoring and speed control from Dotmi, then lay the blame mainly on the pathetic implementation of our Arrival manager software. Not so much the equipment fault but the total lack of training and proper staffing to get the most out of it. Its been suspended at the moment pending a complete overhaul so a lot of the flow control is being done manually right now which is a lot harder with the 3 sreams of traffic.
One can argue that the Siera and Sikou flights are now simply getting their rightful place in the sequence instead of wandering around the south china sea as they have for years. Agreed its not pretty at the moment but hopefully will improve as we get experience.
Its just that we've had hammered into us for the past few weeks that the new Stars were supposed to reduce the amount of second-guessing that went on from both sides with the Siera arrivals. You wondered what we're going to do with you and we wondered what speed you're doing and if you'd be able to get down.
The guys who designed it flew it in the CX sim and tell us that the track mileage is right for a reasonable VNAV profile.
We've been told not to track shorten unless its absolutely dead quiet as they're (CAD management and the AOs) sick of the number of go-arounds caused by unstable approaches.
As for the wild vectoring and speed control from Dotmi, then lay the blame mainly on the pathetic implementation of our Arrival manager software. Not so much the equipment fault but the total lack of training and proper staffing to get the most out of it. Its been suspended at the moment pending a complete overhaul so a lot of the flow control is being done manually right now which is a lot harder with the 3 sreams of traffic.
One can argue that the Siera and Sikou flights are now simply getting their rightful place in the sequence instead of wandering around the south china sea as they have for years. Agreed its not pretty at the moment but hopefully will improve as we get experience.
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Lap Sap
Sorry that this BEKOL thread has become a SIERA thread also..... But anyway.
Thanks for the interesting background on this. As a non-HKG operator we get told nothing of course, there's just a different chart in the book one day. Nor am I really up to speed on how the SIERA arrival interacts with other arrivals. Having said that, I do know a senior ATC guy there in HKG and I knew changes were coming. But my airline, as a whole, still is anticipating a potential 50-55nm from SIERA to the 07 thresholds.
If we are not going to get the tight cut-in anymore, then I have no problem being 280 at SIERA (kind of a shame as I really like flying that tight arrival). But the merest hint of track shortening and 280 is not fair: we shouldn't be forced to ride the speed brake all the way down. Pax get the s#!ts and I have a problem with high rates of descent approaching the ground....
Again, thanks for some of the background, mate - the first I've heard!
Thanks for the interesting background on this. As a non-HKG operator we get told nothing of course, there's just a different chart in the book one day. Nor am I really up to speed on how the SIERA arrival interacts with other arrivals. Having said that, I do know a senior ATC guy there in HKG and I knew changes were coming. But my airline, as a whole, still is anticipating a potential 50-55nm from SIERA to the 07 thresholds.
If we are not going to get the tight cut-in anymore, then I have no problem being 280 at SIERA (kind of a shame as I really like flying that tight arrival). But the merest hint of track shortening and 280 is not fair: we shouldn't be forced to ride the speed brake all the way down. Pax get the s#!ts and I have a problem with high rates of descent approaching the ground....
Again, thanks for some of the background, mate - the first I've heard!
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Hi JayArr, can't quite see the problem with using the speedbrake if necessary all the way down. Its a control to be used just like the others.
If you don't like that here in sunny honkers, I hope you never have to go to SFO or JFK and be subject to the worlds second best controllers
, where descents like that are frequent and the controllers would just expect you to get your big boy pants on.
If you don't like that here in sunny honkers, I hope you never have to go to SFO or JFK and be subject to the worlds second best controllers
, where descents like that are frequent and the controllers would just expect you to get your big boy pants on.
Jay Arr regularly operates into SFO, JFK and HKG with his BIG BOY PANTS on LongTime.
He's simply seeking ways to operate the aircraft more efficiently & comfortably by asking questions of those who operate through SIERA daily!
I'm sure he'll use the speedbrake too if he needs it.
He's simply seeking ways to operate the aircraft more efficiently & comfortably by asking questions of those who operate through SIERA daily!
I'm sure he'll use the speedbrake too if he needs it.
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Thanks m888...
HKG air traffic controllers are amongst the best in the world, especially when you consider the traffic, weather and terrain factors. I have no doubt those fellow aviation professionals would consider prolonged speed-brake descents as inefficient and uncomfortable for pax. I suspect this will be refined in the not-to-distant future.
HKG air traffic controllers are amongst the best in the world, especially when you consider the traffic, weather and terrain factors. I have no doubt those fellow aviation professionals would consider prolonged speed-brake descents as inefficient and uncomfortable for pax. I suspect this will be refined in the not-to-distant future.