Pilots : Regarding VHHH J9 & J1 TO

[BusyB]

nitpicker,
OK, I admit one nit, I should have said main gear but it still doesn't steer, it trails

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

What I see here is a reasonable request and a piece of information that most pilots don't have, and a few wankers whining and squeeling... "no, I won't do it, I do what I want, you're not the boss of me"! How childish! There's a reason pilots are not awarded honorary air traffic controller licenses! If you were considered to know it all on the ATC side, you would be given one! When someone gives you information you didn't have before and makes a very reasoable request, just be thankful and consider it in your decision making next time. Don't be a child! Asking for the full length earlier than last minute if you require it is common sense anyway, but here's another perfect example how common sense is not all that common!

Thanks MercuryRising, will do!

[nitpicker330]

Well, it is connected to the nose wheel steering and doesn't just "trail" as you put it. It is hyd powered by the Centre Hyd sys.

To quote FCOM 1:--

"Main gear aft axle steering is powered by the center hydraulic system.
Main gear aft axle steering automatically operates when the nose wheel steering angle exceeds 13 degrees to reduce tire scrubbing."

So, it's like 4 wheel steering on a Honda, it is an active part of the operation and doesn't simply "trail" like a stupid dog!!

[nitpicker330]

HeavyWrench.............it's not about being childish or me me me.

If we require the full length for perf reasons then yes I will and do ask on the taxi call., no worries.

However If I'm taxing around the corner and see the full length is available and I've been given J9 I will ask for the full length and it wont matter what freq I'm on. Big deal if I should have thought to ask ground 2 minutes before!! I can't be expected to know all the quirks of every ATC system worldwide.

Bottom line............If it's that important then publish it in the AIP, then CX will put it in the Port Page.

I'll take on board what he asks, but make no promises.

[12wheeler]

Pilot's perspective

Thanks for a good piece of information!

I am one of those who often ask for H1/J10 on Tower frequency. When I am given J1 and there is another aircraft waiting to depart on H1 (usually the case), I won't make the request to use H1 on any frequency. Sometimes Chinese carriers wait at H1 for their departure slots, ATC may want to clear us to depart on J1 ahead of them. If I request H1 too early on Ground freq, ATC may think I NEED H1 and put me behind the aircraft already on H1. I normally just wait until I see the aircraft at H1 lining up or I pick up the departure sequence on radio, then I will ask if I could depart from H1. By that time, I am normally with Tower.

[Dragon69]

Dragon69, Respectfully,

From ACARS-
PACKS ON
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R J1 = CANNOT
A343 31deg C, 276.5t, 5 KT tail, TOGA, 07R H1 = CAN

99 meters in this case makes a BIG difference!

AFL

AFL why don't you check the PACKS OFF figures..... = CAN.....but more importantly your point is irrelevant to this discussion, since you would know even before push back that J1/J9 would not be possible for your weight/conditions, and hence would have advised ground long before you started taxiing. Nice try though . The initial post was referring to the crew accepting J1/J9 and last minute requesting H1/J10 on tower frequency.

Svengali,

Never flew a Navajo, but I know a good friend who has, I will ask him!

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Dragon69'er,

The company I work for and I presume by default inter alia the company you now work for preaches CRM v6. Which emphasises TEM (threat & error management), this means mitigating potential threats by developing an appropriate strategy to deal with them. Our fleet office has decided that PACKS OFF take-off is a non-std procedure with the exception of 1 Port JNB.

Therefor PACKS-OFF is most always the last resort and full length is to be used prior to resorting to a PACKS-OFF RTOW. And yes often this is decided on the bay and also very often when atmospheric conditions change after pushback.

Then again as your operation (short-haul) is generally not RTOW limited from HKG your reply does not surprise me (as usual).

Have a nice day in sunny fresh Shanghai.
Sincerely,
Alpha Floor

[Dragon69]

Come on Alpha Floor big picture stuff. I am not suggesting doing intersection departures at long haul weights. I've flown enough long haul to know that at max weight the A340 will be able to depart from J9/J1, so we are never field length limited, you were trying to dispute that with your figures. Would I do it? Of course not! However, flying regionally, and in a real airplane, departing from J1/J9 is as much of a threat as using FLEX departures.

this means mitigating potential threats by developing an appropriate strategy to deal with them. Our fleet office has decided that PACKS OFF take-off is a non-std procedure with the exception of 1 Port JNB.

You call a PACKS OFF T/O a threat??????? Are you a pilot or merely a pansy button pusher???? What's next manual landings are a threat????

[ALPHA FLOOR]

My management defines PACKS-OFF a threat in the FCTM, based on the number of "early flap retractions" experienced on the fleet over the years, adding selection of PACKS at thrust reduction is considered a distraction at a critical time when one should be focussing on Mode awareness and configuration changes etc (TEM removing a potential threat) ---

Any further debate on the topic is pointless as you seem to have made your mind up.

AFL

[Dragon69]

What can I say, you've obviously had way too many drinks with Bob and Daryl!

Have a nice day

[Shot Nancy]

What is a Navajo?
Wise to raise the issue MercuryRising. I thought GND determined the intersection based on our departure sequence. Of course if full length is REQUIRED as opposed to REQUESTED the earlier ATC know the better.
ALPHAFLOOR: In the days before CRM and TEM there was common sense and airmanship. There was also a higher hour requirement before being allowed to fly airline jets. I get the feeling from your posts that a lot of "flying" things are being dumbed down by your company. So if it isn't listed as a threat in some book it isn't a threat?
Can you explain how the PACK PB is connected to the flap lever?

[2longhk]

When you say I need the full length then take -off with reduced thrust you have no clue .

[nitpicker330]

this is not rocket science boys.

settle down.

The point is that "if" the full length is available and you are right there then you'd be a little stupid not to take the extra 99 m.

Obviously there are times when close to field length limited weight and you must take it.

yes at flex t/o settings J9 or J10 wont make a hoot of difference 99.95% of the time. But Murphy is hanging around!! You'd look pretty silly in court explaining why you didn't take the avail full length and therefore clipped the lights at the other end!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the lawyers would have a field day, why give them the pleasure?

Could be one less nail in your coffin !!

[nitpicker330]

If the longer black stuff is available and it's not going to cause us any delay wouldn't you be duty bound to take it? Wouldn't you be stupid not to?

A bit of extra length never hurt. ( I'm taking about Aviation )

[ClearToLand]

Hi guys/gals, I just want to explain a little bit here: as a ground controller, the general rules (not absolute) for taxiing aircraft to a holding point are for those parking at south apron normally taxi via J to J1HP and for those parking at west/north apron normally taxi via H to H1HP, in this case, we can keep the conflict points to minimum, similar rules apply to J9/J10. Of course, things subject to change when we have to do dep sequencing, or an aircraft needs to make their expiry time etc.

If pilot has been told to taxi to J1HP via J, normally that means there are other traffic taxiing to H1 via H, if you don't see anyone at the H1HP and ask TWR controller for it, that means the TWR controller has to ask the ground controller's permission, and at the same time if there's someone taxiing on H and has been told to go to H1HP, the ground controller has to tell that aircraft now you have to follow the traffic to your left to the H1HP. Yes, physically those 2 are not going to hit, but we still need to apply separation assurance. If not busy, that's not a big deal, but if it's busy, asking for H1 can increase lots of workload and coordination.

Some controllers like only using J, so that everyone can go to H1HP, but then the conflict increase at the junction of W/J, and the flexibility for dep sequencing decrease. So, if you really need H1, tell ground controller so that he/she can merge you with other traffic if required.

[geh065]

Thanks CleartoLand. That makes sense!

[Night Watch]

CleartoLand

Thank you for one of the the best posts I've read on PPRuNe in a long time. That makes perfect sense.