744 Mentoring Program
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It certainly raises some interesting questions. Why the need for it? Is the training department failing in their task, or are some individuals just too dumb to meet the standards? Is it a program designed for those keen individuals aiming for management, or for those having spent too many years making beds and reading The Economist while losing sight of whatever inspired them to get into aviation in the first place?
Why not join the Guild instead?
Why not join the Guild instead?
Join Date: May 2004
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What are the pay-scales gonna be for these "mentors"??
Just another scam for Cathay to get something free of charge. This mickey-mouse ****t needs to stop, this isn't the local FBO. How about you get rid of the dead wood in the training department. You know EXACTLY who they are, nothing new here. You get rid of them, you won't need no "mentoring". Give me a break.
Oh gee, can I borrow the keys to the 777 this weekend to go practice my touch-n-gos?...
... wait a minute - oh yeah, we already do that.
Just another scam for Cathay to get something free of charge. This mickey-mouse ****t needs to stop, this isn't the local FBO. How about you get rid of the dead wood in the training department. You know EXACTLY who they are, nothing new here. You get rid of them, you won't need no "mentoring". Give me a break.
Oh gee, can I borrow the keys to the 777 this weekend to go practice my touch-n-gos?...
... wait a minute - oh yeah, we already do that.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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this is another one of those "if you are not a CX captain, you know F*** all" gems isnt it, really! hate to say it, i do chew the fat on occasions with mates over a beer.....my mates? they may not be senior cathay hands but still have had 20 years in aviation flying everything from red arrows to UN charters dodging bullets in africa to float planes in mauritius etc etc etc
i dont need to talk to an old man with no life about flying thank you very much....because my mates are good enough to discuss flying with....on the rare occasions that we cant fill a conversation talking about tits and bums.
i dont need to talk to an old man with no life about flying thank you very much....because my mates are good enough to discuss flying with....on the rare occasions that we cant fill a conversation talking about tits and bums.
My understanding is that it is a program that invites some of us to try and teach a number of younger colleagues, who may having trouble mind-reading, to ignore what is said and try to understand what is MENT ....although I must say doing the bumtittybumtittybum routine in Lapland with trebor might be more fun.
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Stay Focused Stay Professional
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Please review the following from the HKAOA Update 11th August, 2009:
Industry News
"In his keynote address to the 2009 ALPA International Air Safety Forum, FAA Administrator, Captain Randy Babbit, told delegates that if the industry is to reach the next level of safety it is vital that every member of the profession raise the safety bar “if you think standards are good enough then your standards are too low.” He further challenged delegates to take the experience and knowledge they have gained and pass it on to new pilots entering the industry. “Now is not the time to be ‘the Captain of few words’ if you are not mentoring and passing on your experience you are doing the profession a disservice.”
Turning his attention to the development of new standards for flight and duty time regulations, Captain Babbit said that the industry is dealing with rules that were made in the era of piston airliners and have little relevance to today’s environment. “The fact remains that we have the data to hand to help us to develop rules that are rooted in science and take into account the best fatigue data available. To do anything else would be a failure.”
The HKAOA fully supports the sentiments expressed by Captain Babbitt."
Please review the following from the HKAOA Update 11th August, 2009:
Industry News
"In his keynote address to the 2009 ALPA International Air Safety Forum, FAA Administrator, Captain Randy Babbit, told delegates that if the industry is to reach the next level of safety it is vital that every member of the profession raise the safety bar “if you think standards are good enough then your standards are too low.” He further challenged delegates to take the experience and knowledge they have gained and pass it on to new pilots entering the industry. “Now is not the time to be ‘the Captain of few words’ if you are not mentoring and passing on your experience you are doing the profession a disservice.”
Turning his attention to the development of new standards for flight and duty time regulations, Captain Babbit said that the industry is dealing with rules that were made in the era of piston airliners and have little relevance to today’s environment. “The fact remains that we have the data to hand to help us to develop rules that are rooted in science and take into account the best fatigue data available. To do anything else would be a failure.”
The HKAOA fully supports the sentiments expressed by Captain Babbitt."
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Mentoring program....
Good!! We ALL need mentoring do we??
Chaps, I know it' s hard for you now but few years from now you' ll be in that left seat spewing out the same bollocks we say now and even worse.Then, you' ll remember the days when Cn so and so was jettisoning all over you as good old memories.
Enjoy the ride.Just make sure to stay on the right horse.......................
Good!! We ALL need mentoring do we??
Chaps, I know it' s hard for you now but few years from now you' ll be in that left seat spewing out the same bollocks we say now and even worse.Then, you' ll remember the days when Cn so and so was jettisoning all over you as good old memories.
Enjoy the ride.Just make sure to stay on the right horse.......................
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Hmmm, could this be because they see an standardization problem and trying to fix it?!? They are very misguided if they think this sceme is capable of fixing anything. The books are very poorly written, the company does not put down detailed SOPs in writing and striclty enforce their adherance, which means they don't understand the very first meaning of standardization, trainers/checkers each have their own ideas about what is standard and what's not and you can't keep even two of them happy no matter what you do! So there's no shortage of people who are confused about what they're supposed to do and not. Add to that the occasional official email telling us how this is a thinking pilot's airline and we don't want to put everything in writing so there's flexibility etc... The result should not be surprizing to anyone! In aviation, if it's not in writing, it's not standard. Word of mouth is worthless in this business. Throw away the current books, and re-write them. Take a look at the other airlines operating the same equipement & routes and you'll see what I mean! This place revolves around vol. 8s... cheating!! Establish solid standards and enforce them strictly. Get rid of checkers that spread their own personal ideas and prefrences in the name of "this is what they want you to do" instead of pointing out what the book says and expect you to do it that way!
It's an old problem which has an old solution as I mentioned above. There are too many FAA, CAA, NASA and NTSB reports and various books written on the subject if one cares to know! Cathay library carries a few of them by author Tony Kern. When there's a lack of performance issue in an organization, there's always an organizational shortcoming at the core of it. As they say, "garbage in, garbage out"! If you don't like the factory's final product, set tighter standards and make sure they're adhered to! Like any other system that produces a product. If a mistake is made which damn nearly results in a disaster, modify the related SOPs so it's not likely someone else makes the same mistake. SOPs can never be set in stone, becuase people keep inventing new ways of f'ing it up, that's the nature of it! Stop telling people "we put that in the book just to align our procedures with Boeing, but we actually don't want you to do that" unless you have no regard for the standardization mayham and utter confusion that statement will cause on the line!
Establish solid SOPs, present them in well written form, enforce their adherance. Mentoring programs are for amateurs getting started in something for the first time. Have more respect for your troops. They need proper clear guidance & standards to follow and your backing for doing so! That's also called leadership!
Don't even get me started!
It's an old problem which has an old solution as I mentioned above. There are too many FAA, CAA, NASA and NTSB reports and various books written on the subject if one cares to know! Cathay library carries a few of them by author Tony Kern. When there's a lack of performance issue in an organization, there's always an organizational shortcoming at the core of it. As they say, "garbage in, garbage out"! If you don't like the factory's final product, set tighter standards and make sure they're adhered to! Like any other system that produces a product. If a mistake is made which damn nearly results in a disaster, modify the related SOPs so it's not likely someone else makes the same mistake. SOPs can never be set in stone, becuase people keep inventing new ways of f'ing it up, that's the nature of it! Stop telling people "we put that in the book just to align our procedures with Boeing, but we actually don't want you to do that" unless you have no regard for the standardization mayham and utter confusion that statement will cause on the line!
Establish solid SOPs, present them in well written form, enforce their adherance. Mentoring programs are for amateurs getting started in something for the first time. Have more respect for your troops. They need proper clear guidance & standards to follow and your backing for doing so! That's also called leadership!
Don't even get me started!
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Whilst not disagreeing with you
your post "seems" contradictory. You say...
"...the company does not put down detailed SOPs in writing and striclty enforce their adherance",... and then you say...
"SOPs can never be set in stone, becuase people keep inventing new ways of f'ing it up, that's the nature of it!"
I have highlighted the word "seems", as your post encapsulates one of the many problems any industry encounters when it tries to document or script responses to dynamic and unpredictable situations.... whether that be a surgeon or the guy at McD's
Whilst I am skeptical about the mentoring program (as I can guess what type of person will go for it), I sense what they want to do is pair people up so you learn/challenge the inevitable intangibles in a less threatening environment.
The best example I can give you is the CTWO brief; one guy can brief and you think he is a good operator, another and you think he is a shambles/tosser. One guy will subsequently pass his command course, the other wont. They both may say the same words, but convey a completely different impression.
I would hope under a mentoring program the environment would be such your mentor would tell you straight and direct what impression you give and how to correct. You can then mull it over and go back to the line and try it out. Sadly, the reality will be a 4 hour argument (in colour) about whether or not you should, or should not, brief the 07 engine inop or whether the MSA is based on the VOR or the airport; because we are "big picture" operators ugh:
"...the company does not put down detailed SOPs in writing and striclty enforce their adherance",... and then you say...
"SOPs can never be set in stone, becuase people keep inventing new ways of f'ing it up, that's the nature of it!"
I have highlighted the word "seems", as your post encapsulates one of the many problems any industry encounters when it tries to document or script responses to dynamic and unpredictable situations.... whether that be a surgeon or the guy at McD's
Whilst I am skeptical about the mentoring program (as I can guess what type of person will go for it
), I sense what they want to do is pair people up so you learn/challenge the inevitable intangibles in a less threatening environment.The best example I can give you is the CTWO brief; one guy can brief and you think he is a good operator, another and you think he is a shambles/tosser. One guy will subsequently pass his command course, the other wont. They both may say the same words, but convey a completely different impression.
I would hope under a mentoring program the environment would be such your mentor would tell you straight and direct what impression you give and how to correct. You can then mull it over and go back to the line and try it out. Sadly, the reality will be a 4 hour argument (in colour) about whether or not you should, or should not, brief the 07 engine inop or whether the MSA is based on the VOR or the airport; because we are "big picture" operators ugh:
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HWF, I couldn't have said it better myself. You are spot on on all your comments. 
Unfortunately, as you mentioned, what are the chances that they will re-write every single book? I agree with you, that is what is needed in this place. I just hope it doesn't take some bent metal to bring it about.
Unfortunately, as you mentioned, what are the chances that they will re-write every single book? I agree with you, that is what is needed in this place. I just hope it doesn't take some bent metal to bring it about.
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I guess Liam needs a little clarification! Over long term, SOPs are fluid. But over short term they are set solid and uncompromising. The organization is responsible for establishing firm and solid standard operating procedures which are set in stone or concrete, whatever you want to call them! But since people have a special talent to come up with new and inventive ways to f'k up, each time there's an event a serious look should be taken at how a procedure could be changed or a new one added to prevent the next guy from making the same mistake. SOPs need to be amended from time to time for that reason. But until they are, they have to be 'set in stone' and enforced striclty or they're worthless.
If an organization has an event that's a near disaster and no changes are made to the SOPs to prevent it from happening again, then that organization is not even reactive! And unless we're doing the best to be proactive, not just reactive, we can't say we're doing everything we can to be safe.
That's why when there's an accident and NTSB, FAA, CAA etc... investigate they recommand or establish new rules to keep the next dumbass from repeating the same mistake again. Afterall, the very definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a differrent result, isn't it?!?
A mentoring program amounts to no more than, monkey see monkey do! Put in writing what exactly you want me to do and I'll do it every time right down to the last detail! I won't be aspiring to be like someone else nor will I pay any attention to what he has to say unless he's standard & by the book. And in that case if I'm too stupid to read and follow the book after I've already been trained and qualified, then I'm just falt out stupid and have no business flying aircraft.
An efficient and comprehensive training program is the starting point for all of this. A 'do it yourself training' system with almost no classroom instruction and an utter lack of consistency among trainers/checkers especially the senior ones (we've got some class A trainer/checkers that do it all by the book and are the best there is, not to offend them here) cannot be expected to produce a constant and standard product. This is how you ge surprises with guys already qualified and online being assessed as needing more attention such as more sectors, mentoring, extra sim time, double check rides, etc... Mentoring already qualified line pilots is trying to fix the problem at it's ass end! Establishing efficient training and solid SOPs is starting at the begining!
If an organization has an event that's a near disaster and no changes are made to the SOPs to prevent it from happening again, then that organization is not even reactive! And unless we're doing the best to be proactive, not just reactive, we can't say we're doing everything we can to be safe.
That's why when there's an accident and NTSB, FAA, CAA etc... investigate they recommand or establish new rules to keep the next dumbass from repeating the same mistake again. Afterall, the very definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a differrent result, isn't it?!?
A mentoring program amounts to no more than, monkey see monkey do! Put in writing what exactly you want me to do and I'll do it every time right down to the last detail! I won't be aspiring to be like someone else nor will I pay any attention to what he has to say unless he's standard & by the book. And in that case if I'm too stupid to read and follow the book after I've already been trained and qualified, then I'm just falt out stupid and have no business flying aircraft.
An efficient and comprehensive training program is the starting point for all of this. A 'do it yourself training' system with almost no classroom instruction and an utter lack of consistency among trainers/checkers especially the senior ones (we've got some class A trainer/checkers that do it all by the book and are the best there is, not to offend them here) cannot be expected to produce a constant and standard product. This is how you ge surprises with guys already qualified and online being assessed as needing more attention such as more sectors, mentoring, extra sim time, double check rides, etc... Mentoring already qualified line pilots is trying to fix the problem at it's ass end! Establishing efficient training and solid SOPs is starting at the begining!
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HWF Comments
HWF,
Great posts, very well thought out. I cannot argue anything you wrote. However, CX is a very proud airline with an excellent safety record. Until there is (God forbid) an accident here, the senior leadership will not see a safety culture problem because there is no financial incentive to do so. Furthermore, there is a substantial financial disincentive to bringing attention on any existing problem. Additional safety costs money. So we will continue to see pawns at the FOP level which proudly fly the flag with little or no variation from the present. Anyone potentially revolutionary will be minimized, converted, fired, or never hired in the first place. Change will be slow to nonexistent.
Great posts, very well thought out. I cannot argue anything you wrote. However, CX is a very proud airline with an excellent safety record. Until there is (God forbid) an accident here, the senior leadership will not see a safety culture problem because there is no financial incentive to do so. Furthermore, there is a substantial financial disincentive to bringing attention on any existing problem. Additional safety costs money. So we will continue to see pawns at the FOP level which proudly fly the flag with little or no variation from the present. Anyone potentially revolutionary will be minimized, converted, fired, or never hired in the first place. Change will be slow to nonexistent.
Last edited by cxorcist; 16th Sep 2009 at 12:53.