SCMP - Flight did not require a third pilot, aviation body tells court
Join Date: Aug 2007
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So imagine turning up for work at midnight, finding out you have no required third crew member, and that CX has just got an approval to operate the flight. As the Captain, wouldn't you just refuse on the grounds of the stupidity of the Approval?? Or does the Dispensation negate the captain's judgement?
Considering he's 99% either based in HK or Australia ( they don't sensibly roster to normal body clocks), he probably didnt sleep for the whole day, and was shagged ( TIRED, FATIGUED ) anyway. In my Opinion, he should have just refused.
Considering he's 99% either based in HK or Australia ( they don't sensibly roster to normal body clocks), he probably didnt sleep for the whole day, and was shagged ( TIRED, FATIGUED ) anyway. In my Opinion, he should have just refused.
Last edited by Sleeve_of_Wizard; 20th Jun 2009 at 16:52. Reason: Deleting Aussie Slang!!!
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Or does the Dispensation negate the captain's judgement?
Just because a circumstance is presented to you, that you are told is now legal because of "blah blah whatever...", there is still the onus on the skipper to ensure that the proposed course of action is also prudent.
I'm sure we all know, just because something is legal, doesn't necessarily make it sensible and prudent. Amongst other things, we are also paid to exercise good judgement, so that we can avoid, where possible, having to use our skills to dig ourselves out of holes later, that we wish we hadn't gotten ourselves into, either willingly or through coercion.
Standing up and defending your position is however another question.
Some do it without batting an eyelid, some others are more easily led.
Remember, our passengers pay to get there safely.
If they are on time, well thats just an added bonus.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Over 8 hours in the seat with no rest is way too much...
Considering he's 99% either based in HK or Australia ( they don't sensibly roster to normal body clocks), he probably didnt sleep for the whole day, and was shagged anyway. In my Opinion, he should have just refused.
Does NOT belong at the pointy end, considering proper rest was originally scheduled.
HOTAC is designed for rest...not shagging until your eyes are crossed.
Contrary to popular opinion.
A wake up call is needed for such crew that think they can get away with just...any old ideas.
Shape up...or ship out.
I'm sure the airline won't care.
A problem with FTLs is that they assume human beings are machines that can be switched OFF and ON as required during rostered rest periods. That's obviously not the case and I personally find it very difficult to get enough rest during the day before an overnight flight. Circadian rhythms make it difficult for many pilots to sleep properly during the day; at home there's the pressure of family life, while down route we have the problem of cheap, noisy crew hotels. Complaints to management don't get very far.
That said, I don't have a problem with the regulator granting temporary variations, provided suitable safeguards are in place (eg adequate notice to the crew, etc). I do find some of the provisions of the FTLs a bit ludicrous, however. An overnight flight with one sector from MEL-HKG requires 3 crew, but an overnight pattern with two sectors from HKG-DPS vv and a longer duty period doesn't. Which one is more fatiguing?
That said, I don't have a problem with the regulator granting temporary variations, provided suitable safeguards are in place (eg adequate notice to the crew, etc). I do find some of the provisions of the FTLs a bit ludicrous, however. An overnight flight with one sector from MEL-HKG requires 3 crew, but an overnight pattern with two sectors from HKG-DPS vv and a longer duty period doesn't. Which one is more fatiguing?
Join Date: Oct 2007
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What if the CMD dies of natural causes during a flight
Picture this:
The F/O is HK based did not get a decent sleep for the last two nights and is completely stressed out. (Ie Divorce or what ever)
They have a technical problem in route (What ever) which stresses an elder CMD out, to the extent that he passes away as did a continental CMD recently.
Now you have a possibly low time experienced and completely fatigued / stressed out F/O in charge of a plane with a technical problem.
Lets hope he has plenty of fuel or the weather is gin clear in HK.
(Yes I know its silly example)
What I'm trying to say is. We should be fully rested & crewed not only for normal run of the mill days but rather for days when things go wrong. This is when our grey matter is really required & why passengers on CX pay top dollar for tickets. If we are not going to do this then we are playing with fire.
We also fly airbus through the ITCZ like AF447 so lets have some Res man power under our belts.
If there were pilots in Aussie able to fly on that said day then the CAD should have insisted on that rather than issue a Dispensation.
Thus I think it is worthy of an appeal.
The F/O is HK based did not get a decent sleep for the last two nights and is completely stressed out. (Ie Divorce or what ever)
They have a technical problem in route (What ever) which stresses an elder CMD out, to the extent that he passes away as did a continental CMD recently.
Now you have a possibly low time experienced and completely fatigued / stressed out F/O in charge of a plane with a technical problem.
Lets hope he has plenty of fuel or the weather is gin clear in HK.
(Yes I know its silly example)
What I'm trying to say is. We should be fully rested & crewed not only for normal run of the mill days but rather for days when things go wrong. This is when our grey matter is really required & why passengers on CX pay top dollar for tickets. If we are not going to do this then we are playing with fire.
We also fly airbus through the ITCZ like AF447 so lets have some Res man power under our belts.
If there were pilots in Aussie able to fly on that said day then the CAD should have insisted on that rather than issue a Dispensation.
Thus I think it is worthy of an appeal.
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FTL's are a limit and if we are being rostered flying to the limit of these then we have serious problems.
Do we fly our aircraft at 1 degree less than Max EGT for T/O constantly?
Do we fly at MMO constantly?
Doing this degrades the performance of not only the aircraft but our ability to fix a problem if something goes wrong.
SO Why roster to the max of the FTL's?
Do we fly our aircraft at 1 degree less than Max EGT for T/O constantly?
Do we fly at MMO constantly?
Doing this degrades the performance of not only the aircraft but our ability to fix a problem if something goes wrong.
SO Why roster to the max of the FTL's?
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Why Roster to the Max of the FTL's?
Mate in HKG (and only HKG I might add), the CAD (and therefore KA and CX) deem the CAD document to be a "working document!" That means you can (and should) roster to these limits. No buffering need be applied.
I kid you not....from the FTL manager in KA....so don't hold your breath for any common sense.
What I love is that the very people who decide on the interpretations are the very people who don't have to go out and "do" the flight.
Gliderboy
Mate in HKG (and only HKG I might add), the CAD (and therefore KA and CX) deem the CAD document to be a "working document!" That means you can (and should) roster to these limits. No buffering need be applied.
I kid you not....from the FTL manager in KA....so don't hold your breath for any common sense.
What I love is that the very people who decide on the interpretations are the very people who don't have to go out and "do" the flight.
Gliderboy
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The F/O is HK based did not get a decent sleep for the last two nights and is completely stressed out. (Ie Divorce or what ever)
They have a technical problem in route (What ever) which stresses an elder CMD out, to the extent that he passes away as did a continental CMD recently.
Now you have a possibly low time experienced and completely fatigued / stressed out F/O in charge of a plane with a technical problem.
Lets hope he has plenty of fuel or the weather is gin clear in HK.
They have a technical problem in route (What ever) which stresses an elder CMD out, to the extent that he passes away as did a continental CMD recently.
Now you have a possibly low time experienced and completely fatigued / stressed out F/O in charge of a plane with a technical problem.
Lets hope he has plenty of fuel or the weather is gin clear in HK.
Join Date: Apr 2007
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If you waive your rights to the protection of FTL's by accepting the dispensation, where do you stand of you have a fatigue related incident? My understanding is that you cant plead 'fatigue' as a contributing factor, as you chose to accept all responsibility for fatigue issues, and to 'dispense' with any protection that the so called regs afford you? (Yes I use the term protection loosely). Would be nice to have some legal advice on this, just not from a swires/cx sponsored court system.
TheHKAOA, the cx lapel badge helped identify who to give the 'lai see' to.
TheHKAOA, the cx lapel badge helped identify who to give the 'lai see' to.
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From RTHK newsearlier today;
"The Cathay Pacific pilots' union has lost a legal challenge against a decision by the Civil Aviation Department to let a long-haul flight go ahead, despite being one pilot short of what safety regulations required. The union argued that the department did not have the power to make the decision, or alternatively, its decision was irrational. But in dismissing the union's case, the judge ruled that the department did have the power to permit one-off variations of the requirement for a three-man crew"
win some, lose some..?
"The Cathay Pacific pilots' union has lost a legal challenge against a decision by the Civil Aviation Department to let a long-haul flight go ahead, despite being one pilot short of what safety regulations required. The union argued that the department did not have the power to make the decision, or alternatively, its decision was irrational. But in dismissing the union's case, the judge ruled that the department did have the power to permit one-off variations of the requirement for a three-man crew"
win some, lose some..?
Last edited by mcdude; 6th Jul 2009 at 13:29.
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Just proves that the HKCAD are a completely inept , behind the times and totally useless governmental organization.They are the backstop net, and yet they behave like this, AND get away with it .How much does the safety of 250+ pax cost ?.
AOA don't waist your time fighting this one ......
AOA don't waist your time fighting this one ......
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Does this mean that KJP gets his office back?
CX's hefty tax payment to the HKSAR last year certainly seems to have been rewarded.
The words of our masters "Cathay Pacific rewards loyalty with loyalty".
AFL
CX's hefty tax payment to the HKSAR last year certainly seems to have been rewarded.
The words of our masters "Cathay Pacific rewards loyalty with loyalty".
AFL