Why redundancies/Furloughs are necessary
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Ahh so its the "principle" of the matter and you would happily be made redundant for that "principle". If thats so I commend you and your very supporting wife and kids.
I would have more respect for this stated principle of yours if you were in fact on of the 250 lambs at the bottom. Mind you I see you are possible one of our KA brothers, in that case you may well soon be nearer that bottom than it seems.
Now honestly again, should one be, for say personal reasons wanting a redundancy package to suit their own personal lifestyle decisions (eg wanting to get out of HK and cash in the chips) they can hardly claim "principle" to be their reason, it is still self serving.
NO ONE should have to loose their job if they do not wish to when a few weeks SL from their colleagues could save them. Sometimes people need to rise above principle and do what is right instead.
That said if indeed there are people wishing to leave then this should be addressed first by the company offering voluntary redundancy packages.... maybe they fear the exodus
I would have more respect for this stated principle of yours if you were in fact on of the 250 lambs at the bottom. Mind you I see you are possible one of our KA brothers, in that case you may well soon be nearer that bottom than it seems.
Now honestly again, should one be, for say personal reasons wanting a redundancy package to suit their own personal lifestyle decisions (eg wanting to get out of HK and cash in the chips) they can hardly claim "principle" to be their reason, it is still self serving.
NO ONE should have to loose their job if they do not wish to when a few weeks SL from their colleagues could save them. Sometimes people need to rise above principle and do what is right instead.
That said if indeed there are people wishing to leave then this should be addressed first by the company offering voluntary redundancy packages.... maybe they fear the exodus
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volarecantare
I think the real issue here is whether SLS is really needed to avoid redundancies. Most people do not think so, despite what the propaganda machine is pumping out. After years of dishonest conduct, years of underhanded tactics, there is now a bona fide distrust toward our managers or anything that is offered by them. If the reason behind SLS was genuine, you certainly would have seen the pilot body be first to volunteer to save colleagues.
I think the real issue here is whether SLS is really needed to avoid redundancies. Most people do not think so, despite what the propaganda machine is pumping out. After years of dishonest conduct, years of underhanded tactics, there is now a bona fide distrust toward our managers or anything that is offered by them. If the reason behind SLS was genuine, you certainly would have seen the pilot body be first to volunteer to save colleagues.
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I agree that it is important to look at the real issues. However some of the postings and comments here on the sites are ill informed, puerile and damaging to the group as a whole.
However what you said above is clear an important point in itself, that you would prefer to loose your job within seniority rather than have colleagues take unpaid leave.... is that a sincere comment or are you egging in a roundabout way for a redundancy package?
As a matter of interest, how many people would take voluntary redundancy?
However what you said above is clear an important point in itself, that you would prefer to loose your job within seniority rather than have colleagues take unpaid leave.... is that a sincere comment or are you egging in a roundabout way for a redundancy package?
As a matter of interest, how many people would take voluntary redundancy?
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VC oh, oh ,oh, oh!
VC you got me humming it all day!
Of course I wouldn't mind you taking a hit to save my job, but we are working in HKG, the land of the fast buck, model capitalism in a communist state. I am not a social security system, nor a means of funds for a company that wants to hedge it's bets on redundancy. I believe we will be seeing redundancies anyway, maybe announced not long after the SLS scheme closes and probably using the Swine Flu excuse. Then how will we all feel?
Of course I wouldn't mind you taking a hit to save my job, but we are working in HKG, the land of the fast buck, model capitalism in a communist state. I am not a social security system, nor a means of funds for a company that wants to hedge it's bets on redundancy. I believe we will be seeing redundancies anyway, maybe announced not long after the SLS scheme closes and probably using the Swine Flu excuse. Then how will we all feel?
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I think that the general consensus in Hello Kitty City is that the pilots would be happy to see the last in first out rule applied to get rid of the DECs DEFOs and the 'scabs' that came in during the recruitment ban.
That would improve the seniority list for the whinging lifers that are so aggrieved by RA65 and DE officers.
It all goes to show the lack of brotherhood amongst the pilot communities, and it shows that the values of fraternity are pretty weak in the CX flying community.
That would improve the seniority list for the whinging lifers that are so aggrieved by RA65 and DE officers.
It all goes to show the lack of brotherhood amongst the pilot communities, and it shows that the values of fraternity are pretty weak in the CX flying community.
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Trevfly!!!!
You are an annoying little ****! Have you still not gone to seek help for your embarrassingly obvious bitterness issues.
What you are screams so loud its impossible to hear what you are saying...
Your disgusting little rants against people who had either the courage or the foresight to take what was a very lonely and risky decision to move DEC to CX and your relentless attempts to worm around this site trying to evoke an attack on them is vile. Its obviously you had neither the passport nor the spine to have taken such a decision and you are still seething.
When you are the bottom of our list, shivering in fear you will be one person who deserves it and lets hope the rest of us have some more integrity then than you seem to have now.
You are a disgrace to your colleagues and uniform.
What you are screams so loud its impossible to hear what you are saying...
Your disgusting little rants against people who had either the courage or the foresight to take what was a very lonely and risky decision to move DEC to CX and your relentless attempts to worm around this site trying to evoke an attack on them is vile. Its obviously you had neither the passport nor the spine to have taken such a decision and you are still seething.
When you are the bottom of our list, shivering in fear you will be one person who deserves it and lets hope the rest of us have some more integrity then than you seem to have now.
You are a disgrace to your colleagues and uniform.
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Crossbones:
Thank you for calling me a genius.
Words fail me as to why even on an issue as complex as this, people need to insult each other or call each other names.
But anyway, I will reply in a calm and collected manner.
All I was implying in my post is that it was MY own rule and when people have come to me in the past for advice on changing airline that is what I have told them. I am not saying it is an exact science, but so far it has worked!
As far as redundancies is concerned:
I certainly don't like them anymore than you do. I did suffer the consequences once upon a time. My experience is that more often than not companies get it wrong, knee-jerk and make people redundant and hire them back the next month. (A friend of mine was given the boot on the Friday (after 9/11), got a phone call on the Monday to pick up his original roster. Walked away with all the severance cash (and stress of course I grant you that!)).
That is why when you join, the first few years, you sit tight and hope for the best.
I don't know how bad this thing is going to get, and I just wonder now where we are going to draw the line. Not everyone can afford to take "voluntary"SLS. I know some will sign out of fear but with the track record of CX, who can blame them. A job is better than no job.
I am all for voluntary UPL to save jobs, that is what I thought I was doing.
I would be quite useless at running an airline at the moment (or anytime in fact
) but I don't think the way CX is dealing with this crisis on FOP side or this whole SLS thing is necessary (signing of a contract that does not exist yet etc...). Having said this, they have what they want: clans forming with people ranting at each other.
And by the way, even with Cos 08, it looks like we are still going to have freighter guys, UFOs on bases out of seniority etc (not blaming anybody personally: we all take what we are given). All of a sudden, nothing changes!
Like the sentence about small willy syndrome stuff.
This is just discussion. No need to get so wound up if you disagree. Never forget we are colleagues not family even if 99% of us get on like a house on fire
Look forward to flying with you
AB
Thank you for calling me a genius.
Words fail me as to why even on an issue as complex as this, people need to insult each other or call each other names.
But anyway, I will reply in a calm and collected manner.
All I was implying in my post is that it was MY own rule and when people have come to me in the past for advice on changing airline that is what I have told them. I am not saying it is an exact science, but so far it has worked!
As far as redundancies is concerned:
I certainly don't like them anymore than you do. I did suffer the consequences once upon a time. My experience is that more often than not companies get it wrong, knee-jerk and make people redundant and hire them back the next month. (A friend of mine was given the boot on the Friday (after 9/11), got a phone call on the Monday to pick up his original roster. Walked away with all the severance cash (and stress of course I grant you that!)).
That is why when you join, the first few years, you sit tight and hope for the best.
I don't know how bad this thing is going to get, and I just wonder now where we are going to draw the line. Not everyone can afford to take "voluntary"SLS. I know some will sign out of fear but with the track record of CX, who can blame them. A job is better than no job.
I am all for voluntary UPL to save jobs, that is what I thought I was doing.
I would be quite useless at running an airline at the moment (or anytime in fact
) but I don't think the way CX is dealing with this crisis on FOP side or this whole SLS thing is necessary (signing of a contract that does not exist yet etc...). Having said this, they have what they want: clans forming with people ranting at each other.And by the way, even with Cos 08, it looks like we are still going to have freighter guys, UFOs on bases out of seniority etc (not blaming anybody personally: we all take what we are given). All of a sudden, nothing changes!
Like the sentence about small willy syndrome stuff.
This is just discussion. No need to get so wound up if you disagree. Never forget we are colleagues not family even if 99% of us get on like a house on fire
Look forward to flying with you
AB
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Fly747
I hear you Fly, but "what if" discussions are ..well.. just that. I am just saying if one can afford take SL for ones own good (some of us need a rest) and it helps save a few jobs its a good thing. That is within our control...if the scenario you outline below happens, or a worse one, well that's a whole other discussion and we may have more to worry about than just our jobs.
As for the hummin.....check this out...enjoy...note 00.38 seconds...oh yeah.... better than watching pprune
YouTube - Dean Martin - Volare/On an Evening in Roma
As for the hummin.....check this out...enjoy...note 00.38 seconds...oh yeah.... better than watching pprune
YouTube - Dean Martin - Volare/On an Evening in Roma
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Redundancies
Quote from GRIVATION-"I see CoS08 has a 6 month redundancy payment rather than the 3 on CoS99."
I just had a look at COS99 and came up with this...
Everyone gets a "Redundancy Termination Benefit of six months' salary.
So we are all in the same boat on that accord. I looked at CX COS99, Veta COS99, and COS08. So redundancies would be from the bottom up.
Hope this helps to keep the info accurate.
MACH.88
I just had a look at COS99 and came up with this...
Everyone gets a "Redundancy Termination Benefit of six months' salary.
So we are all in the same boat on that accord. I looked at CX COS99, Veta COS99, and COS08. So redundancies would be from the bottom up.
Hope this helps to keep the info accurate.
MACH.88
Last edited by MACH.88; 28th Apr 2009 at 21:37.
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Redundancy etc
Forgive me for being naive but please could one of the complaining (5 years or so with CX) wan***s explain why CX who are trying very hard to get the entire pilot body onto COS08 would make the only pilots who are currently on COS08 redundant!
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Volare,
Your gesture of giving up $100k to save the jobs of those who have been here less than a year is noble. But may I remind you that people weren't willing to pay 3% a month to support 49 senior employees against an unfair dismissal. For some new B scale Captains with four kids, $100k is going to be quite a pinch. Everyone has different financial requirements. Maybe for you $100k will not have a great impact, but for some it will.
Furthermore, the company has already stated that they cannot guarantee 14 consecutive days off, let alone 28, so I am afraid don't expect to be lying on a tropical beach listening to Volarecantare (great song BTW).
So Crossbones, you left a UK airline to come to Cathay, was this decision made for our benefit, or purely for your benefit??? When you leave one airline for another, you knowingly accept the inherent risks that that move brings.
Does anyone have a threshold, or quantified the amount of pay cuts they would have to endure before they say enough is enough???
Not wanting redundancies and not being able to avoid them are two different issues. Most pilots in the US take pay cuts to ensure the survival of the company, not to avoid redundancies.
Crossbones, would you take a four week pay cut to allow Cathay to keep recruiting new pilots????
Your gesture of giving up $100k to save the jobs of those who have been here less than a year is noble. But may I remind you that people weren't willing to pay 3% a month to support 49 senior employees against an unfair dismissal. For some new B scale Captains with four kids, $100k is going to be quite a pinch. Everyone has different financial requirements. Maybe for you $100k will not have a great impact, but for some it will.
Furthermore, the company has already stated that they cannot guarantee 14 consecutive days off, let alone 28, so I am afraid don't expect to be lying on a tropical beach listening to Volarecantare (great song BTW).
I am a DESO from a Uk airline
So hide behind your small dick pseudonyms and chant every man for himself
Does anyone have a threshold, or quantified the amount of pay cuts they would have to endure before they say enough is enough???
I was at Balpa before this and even in the worst of times no one ever wanted redundancies.
Crossbones, would you take a four week pay cut to allow Cathay to keep recruiting new pilots????
