Concessions for RA65?
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Concessions for RA65?
I don't know of another pilot group at any other carrier which had to give up something to go to RA65. Anyone have something different?
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You're reading way too much into this. CX will be faced with age 65 whether the younger employees like it or not. Mandatory retirement has gone the way of the DC3.
CX realises this and knows they will lose in the courts, particularily outside of HKG. Therefore, and what employer wouldn't, they want everyone to sign on at a lower payscale. Remember, they cannot change your contract unless you agree in writing. If you sign CX will say, look we are offering 65 but our employees agreed to the lesser conditions of COS08.
Take the SLS but sign nothing. In the end you will be a model employee on the same contract and CX can do nothing about it.
CX realises this and knows they will lose in the courts, particularily outside of HKG. Therefore, and what employer wouldn't, they want everyone to sign on at a lower payscale. Remember, they cannot change your contract unless you agree in writing. If you sign CX will say, look we are offering 65 but our employees agreed to the lesser conditions of COS08.
Take the SLS but sign nothing. In the end you will be a model employee on the same contract and CX can do nothing about it.
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Westcoast...I'm starting to think that way with 15 years to go to 55, I'm giving away too much just for the benefit of going to 65. Legislation in 15 years will eventually catch up with us.
I say give money but do not sign!
I say give money but do not sign!
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You've got it!
By jove, I think you've got it. Why sign up for something that makes you decide what to do 15 years from now. CX can't even decide what is happenning this summer.
Take the SLS and be a model employee, but don't sign anything. The courts will eventually decide that a company cannot cut your pay if you stay post 55. CX knows that, hence the urgency to have everyone sign COS 08.
It's simple.
Take the SLS and be a model employee, but don't sign anything. The courts will eventually decide that a company cannot cut your pay if you stay post 55. CX knows that, hence the urgency to have everyone sign COS 08.
It's simple.
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Right on, WestCoastCapt! However, what's gonna happen when an FO, who DOESN'T sign on to CoS08 wants a "freighter" command (whatever that means today), and is told, "Oh, if you want B-scale command pay, you should have signed over back in April, 2009! YOUR contract states that freighter Captains are paid FREIGHTER pay!"
Hmm?
Hmm?
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There will be no more FTR commands
Answer to that is there will be NO more FTR commands all will be done on a common seniority list on your existing COS Px conditions this finally gets us back to pre ASL days 
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"CX will be faced with age 65 whether the younger employees like it or not."
"The courts will eventually decide that a company cannot cut your pay if you stay post 55."
Westcoastcapt: You know it is not that, "It's simple" for a 50 years young geriatric late joiner FO that does not have enough jack to walk away in 5 or less years, "eventually" and "will" really are the operative words here. In 15 years probably but not certainly, in 5 or less? Maybe, if your lucky. Every situation is relative and with or without a clear mandate from the AOA it is not that simple for some as one advice does not fit all. Cheers.
"The courts will eventually decide that a company cannot cut your pay if you stay post 55."
Westcoastcapt: You know it is not that, "It's simple" for a 50 years young geriatric late joiner FO that does not have enough jack to walk away in 5 or less years, "eventually" and "will" really are the operative words here. In 15 years probably but not certainly, in 5 or less? Maybe, if your lucky. Every situation is relative and with or without a clear mandate from the AOA it is not that simple for some as one advice does not fit all. Cheers.
Last edited by Vtwin; 21st Apr 2009 at 02:12.
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HKGDriver, from where do you gather this information, "no more freighter commands?" Where is THIS written? I see nothing of this mentioned in the choices given in CrewDirect.
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VTwin...
Unfortunate...yes,but it's true...
I believe it's called "purely speculation" in the courts, and will be overuled by any judge..
In a "real country" age discrimination is a BIG issue, but I'm afraid in Looney Tune Land it might be a very long time before it becomes law, if ever..
If a circus aka puppet government like the one in Hongkers can implement an anti-discrimination law, BUT exempt themselves from it, then I'm afraid I don't see much hope for age laws being passed in the near and distant future..
Unfortunate...yes,but it's true...
I believe it's called "purely speculation" in the courts, and will be overuled by any judge..
In a "real country" age discrimination is a BIG issue, but I'm afraid in Looney Tune Land it might be a very long time before it becomes law, if ever..
If a circus aka puppet government like the one in Hongkers can implement an anti-discrimination law, BUT exempt themselves from it, then I'm afraid I don't see much hope for age laws being passed in the near and distant future..
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As long as the non Cat D FOs don't sign, there will be another deal (good or bad) (just like last time). => it'll cost them more.
If 50 capts reach 55 every year, 50 more FO will get BPP.
If CX stays the same size for three years (plus ~100 guys no extension now), 250 Fo will get BPP => ~HKD60milions per year.
They are targeting SLS for the pilot group. That is the reason why the push COS08 in short notice.
The C/A has basically acheived the quota by ULV early this year.
Most of the GND staff are LVL A.
For pilot we are mainly LVL C & D => 21 or 28 days, ~7% workforce.
Share the pain ????
BTW, how much is a go-around cost ? Any idea ?
If 50 capts reach 55 every year, 50 more FO will get BPP.
If CX stays the same size for three years (plus ~100 guys no extension now), 250 Fo will get BPP => ~HKD60milions per year.
They are targeting SLS for the pilot group. That is the reason why the push COS08 in short notice.
The C/A has basically acheived the quota by ULV early this year.
Most of the GND staff are LVL A.
For pilot we are mainly LVL C & D => 21 or 28 days, ~7% workforce.
Share the pain ????
BTW, how much is a go-around cost ? Any idea ?
Last edited by hongkongpilot; 21st Apr 2009 at 03:18.
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Aibo - incorrect.
When you signed up for COS99 the terms of that contract (to which CX is bound) included retirement at age 55 and bypass pay should any Captain senior to you remain after 55. Senior crew signing a new contract cannot affect your contract.
Every crew member remaining after age 55 must trigger bypass for the next most senior FO on COS99. That simple.
The below are directly copied and pasted from COS 99 -
10.1. In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, subject to 10.3 & 10.4,
the next most senior First Officer on the Aircrew Seniority List will receive Command
Bypass Pay in the form of Captain’s Salary, allowances and benefits on a one for one
basis commencing upon the date that the retained Captain reaches the Retirement Age.
The payment of Command Bypass Pay will cease when the retained Captain retires.
36.1. The normal Retirement Age is fifty five (55) years of age. An Officer will be deemed
to have reached normal Retirement Age on the day on which the Officer reaches his/her
fifty fifth (55th) birthday.
When you signed up for COS99 the terms of that contract (to which CX is bound) included retirement at age 55 and bypass pay should any Captain senior to you remain after 55. Senior crew signing a new contract cannot affect your contract.
Every crew member remaining after age 55 must trigger bypass for the next most senior FO on COS99. That simple.
The below are directly copied and pasted from COS 99 -
10.1. In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, subject to 10.3 & 10.4,
the next most senior First Officer on the Aircrew Seniority List will receive Command
Bypass Pay in the form of Captain’s Salary, allowances and benefits on a one for one
basis commencing upon the date that the retained Captain reaches the Retirement Age.
The payment of Command Bypass Pay will cease when the retained Captain retires.
36.1. The normal Retirement Age is fifty five (55) years of age. An Officer will be deemed
to have reached normal Retirement Age on the day on which the Officer reaches his/her
fifty fifth (55th) birthday.
Last edited by Arcla; 21st Apr 2009 at 06:14. Reason: Added COS details...
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Arcia, I think what Aibo means is that each who signs CoS08 causes one FO and one SO to lose bypass pay. This is incorrect, as those who are entitled to bypass pay will retain it, since in THEIR contract, retirement age is still 55.
Aibo is mistaken.
Aibo is mistaken.
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Thanks for your reply Arcla, that's exactly what I struggle on interpreting the wordings : "10.1. In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, subject to 10.3 & 10.4,
the next most senior First Officer......."
This "Retirement Age" ,to me, is refering to the Captains' retirement(COS08-RA65), not the COS99 F/O's. Hence when a COS08 captain works through 55 is not considered as retention, therefore no bypass triggered. I may be wrong, but the company's lawyer might interpret that way.
the next most senior First Officer......."
This "Retirement Age" ,to me, is refering to the Captains' retirement(COS08-RA65), not the COS99 F/O's. Hence when a COS08 captain works through 55 is not considered as retention, therefore no bypass triggered. I may be wrong, but the company's lawyer might interpret that way.
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treboryelk,
Here's a scenario,if: Majority of Capts sign for COS08(RA65) and majority of F/Os and S/Os remain with COS99(not a remote assumption I guess!), then the BPP problem for the company is much worst than before coz they can't control guys working thru' 55(which they still can at the moment by limiting no. of extendees, subject to operational requirment), hence the BPP. You think the company haven't thought about that? Remember there is not incentive for F/O,S/Os to sign across(not including "SLS not needed"). Correct me further please!
Here's a scenario,if: Majority of Capts sign for COS08(RA65) and majority of F/Os and S/Os remain with COS99(not a remote assumption I guess!), then the BPP problem for the company is much worst than before coz they can't control guys working thru' 55(which they still can at the moment by limiting no. of extendees, subject to operational requirment), hence the BPP. You think the company haven't thought about that? Remember there is not incentive for F/O,S/Os to sign across(not including "SLS not needed"). Correct me further please!
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aibo
not trying to correct you in any way...just stating a fact.
cat D for all COS 99 would make the BPP disappear overnight for CX....with you in wondering what the catch is.
this will never catch on...aren't we supposed to have totally opposite views and wage war on this site between ourselves?
not trying to correct you in any way...just stating a fact.
cat D for all COS 99 would make the BPP disappear overnight for CX....with you in wondering what the catch is.
this will never catch on...aren't we supposed to have totally opposite views and wage war on this site between ourselves?
