S.O recognition, at last.
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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S.O recognition, at last.
Last September, the GMA told 70 odd S.Os that DEFOs were more experienced than S.Os, easier to train on type and therefore hired in preference to proceeding with S.O upgrades.
As many S.Os with high 737, CRJ, ERJ etc. time (and of course P2 ratings on 744/330/340) will tell you, his assertions are palpably untrue.
Well now, our respected 744 CP has actually, once and for all, set the record straight in his latest newsletter:
"Remember that many of our HK based S.Os are more experienced than you [new DEFO] - if you want their respect on the job, earn it."
Given that in the present climate S.Os are not 'suitable/assessable' for their long overdue upgrades (nor, incidentally are they suitable to become CRM facilitators - it remains to be seen whether they will be accepted as LOSA observers), the CPs recognition is most welcome.
'RM
As many S.Os with high 737, CRJ, ERJ etc. time (and of course P2 ratings on 744/330/340) will tell you, his assertions are palpably untrue.
Well now, our respected 744 CP has actually, once and for all, set the record straight in his latest newsletter:
"Remember that many of our HK based S.Os are more experienced than you [new DEFO] - if you want their respect on the job, earn it."
Given that in the present climate S.Os are not 'suitable/assessable' for their long overdue upgrades (nor, incidentally are they suitable to become CRM facilitators - it remains to be seen whether they will be accepted as LOSA observers), the CPs recognition is most welcome.
'RM
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The letter was not from the chief pilot, but from the 400 FTM (probably the sharpest, and one of the most respected, pilots in the Company).
It was directed to "some" of the new DEFO's who are having a bit of a hard time adjusting to the difficulty of maintaining an acceptable standard of currency while flying a based, predominantly long haul roster. The letter was a straight out shot across the bow to pull up their socks if they want to earn the respect of their fellow crewmembers, many of whom, although junior in rank, are more experienced. Showing up unprepared for work will not be tolerated, and preflight prep and self study is expected. He addressed the extra training sectors that have been rostered to help address the currency issue, then finished off with a warning to heed the advise to do their homework and show up prepared, or face the consequences.
Those among us who have flown as relief F/O's for years can sympathize with the challenge of maintaining currency given the limitations of a long haul roster. But I think this was entirely justified given the complaints that have apparently flooded in by all ranks.
Although there may be those who like to belittle the Cathay training system, I happen to think it's second to none and that this is an example of the system being proactive.
Lets hope the new joiners rise to the challenge. I'm sure they will.
It was directed to "some" of the new DEFO's who are having a bit of a hard time adjusting to the difficulty of maintaining an acceptable standard of currency while flying a based, predominantly long haul roster. The letter was a straight out shot across the bow to pull up their socks if they want to earn the respect of their fellow crewmembers, many of whom, although junior in rank, are more experienced. Showing up unprepared for work will not be tolerated, and preflight prep and self study is expected. He addressed the extra training sectors that have been rostered to help address the currency issue, then finished off with a warning to heed the advise to do their homework and show up prepared, or face the consequences.
Those among us who have flown as relief F/O's for years can sympathize with the challenge of maintaining currency given the limitations of a long haul roster. But I think this was entirely justified given the complaints that have apparently flooded in by all ranks.
Although there may be those who like to belittle the Cathay training system, I happen to think it's second to none and that this is an example of the system being proactive.
Lets hope the new joiners rise to the challenge. I'm sure they will.
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Slack
It may also have been directed at crew who turn up in SFO with no socks, hair styles that look like they have stuck their finger in a wet light socket and turned the switch on. Forgotten their hat, coat and manners but remembered to bring the big fat novel to read whilst in the seat.
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"Remember that many of our HK based S.Os are more experienced than you [new DEFO] - if you want their respect on the job, earn it."
on the other hand there should be some poetic justice in 15 years when today's SO is a captain and the DEFO is STILL in the right seat due to lower seniority.
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Yeah, friggin DEFO's -
No experience outside CX
Flown no other types than what CX operates
No experience in a 'real' airline
No experience with other airline SOP's
Have a life outside CX
Don't live in HK
Have a personality
They're the root of ALL evil
Next you'll be telling us they don't like a drink
No experience outside CX
Flown no other types than what CX operates
No experience in a 'real' airline
No experience with other airline SOP's
Have a life outside CX
Don't live in HK
Have a personality
They're the root of ALL evil
Next you'll be telling us they don't like a drink
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on the other hand there should be some poetic justice in 15 years when today's SO is a captain and the DEFO is STILL in the right seat due to lower seniority
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I agree that the DEFO issue is contentious but as a group they only accepted what was offered, I think most of us would have done the same given the oppurtunity. It is a bit rich of the company making an example out of a beast which they in fact created and serves to divert attention from the far more important BPP question. 
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With all that negativity about DEFO's, one seems to forget that they have only accepted the conditions, that were offered to them at the time of hiring. I am sure that all of you have also accepted conditions, that were offered to you at the time of hire, otherwise you would not work for CX.
It was basically a "take it or leave it" scenario. To make the DEFO's target of some of your frustation is irrational.
At the time, the DEFO's were hired, CX was unable to crew the freighters and ironically some on this forum have complained about being "overworked" in midst of bad rostering.
Now, that the times have (temporarily) changed, the mob changes the target to vent frustration at the DEFO's. What will it be tomorrow??
We live in an incredibly dynamic environment that makes exact planning very difficult. The recruitment process at CX takes quite a while and training even more so.
BTW, some of the DEFO's have more than 20 years -400 experience under the belt, even held commands in their former companies.
Project an individual DEFO's short-commings onto the entire DEFO group is irrational as well.
Things will be better again and surely all the SO's will be promoted in due course as they should be. Sometimes, there are just a few obstacles to overcome.
That is life.
Keep the chin up and stay positive.
It was basically a "take it or leave it" scenario. To make the DEFO's target of some of your frustation is irrational.
At the time, the DEFO's were hired, CX was unable to crew the freighters and ironically some on this forum have complained about being "overworked" in midst of bad rostering.
Now, that the times have (temporarily) changed, the mob changes the target to vent frustration at the DEFO's. What will it be tomorrow??
We live in an incredibly dynamic environment that makes exact planning very difficult. The recruitment process at CX takes quite a while and training even more so.
BTW, some of the DEFO's have more than 20 years -400 experience under the belt, even held commands in their former companies.
Project an individual DEFO's short-commings onto the entire DEFO group is irrational as well.
Things will be better again and surely all the SO's will be promoted in due course as they should be. Sometimes, there are just a few obstacles to overcome.
That is life.
Keep the chin up and stay positive.
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Avius - though I like your uppity attitude - keep in mind quite a few SO's also flew 400's before they joined - have to admit that I don't think any had commands. That is besides the point though.
It is a matter of the comapny ignoring seniority - and this will cost these guys dearly.
An SO with an upgrade delayed one year will forever be one payscale lower every year. That translated into more than a million HK $ over the course of a career.....which is a whole lot more than the 10k or so in bypass pay they are also not receiving every month.
Very few of us have an issue with the DEFO 's themselves - it's with the promise that was made that DEFO recruitment won't hold back SO upgrades - and if it does there will be Bypass to compensate.
It is a matter of the comapny ignoring seniority - and this will cost these guys dearly.
An SO with an upgrade delayed one year will forever be one payscale lower every year. That translated into more than a million HK $ over the course of a career.....which is a whole lot more than the 10k or so in bypass pay they are also not receiving every month.
Very few of us have an issue with the DEFO 's themselves - it's with the promise that was made that DEFO recruitment won't hold back SO upgrades - and if it does there will be Bypass to compensate.
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CX was unable to crew the freighters
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The letter was not from the chief pilot, but from the 400 FTM (probably the sharpest, and one of the most respected, pilots in the Company).
Popgun???
me; the "profession" fails us.
Popgun???
me; the "profession" fails us.
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what should have happened....
CX should have offered the DEFO (UFO) positions to all crew by way of a NTC as they have done for the old Freighter FO/CN positions.
Any slots not filled by current staff could then be given to guys off the street.
That was the old way and about as proper as it could be in our messed up seniority system.
Some of the new DEFO's may have had -400 time as someone stated, but I've found 30% of them to be lacking.....and they are already RQ!!
Any slots not filled by current staff could then be given to guys off the street.
That was the old way and about as proper as it could be in our messed up seniority system.
Some of the new DEFO's may have had -400 time as someone stated, but I've found 30% of them to be lacking.....and they are already RQ!!
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For those complaining about seniority and upgrades, spare a thought for those who are still flying around in piston engine aircraft for a measley 30k a year!
Yes I'm sure its hard being an SO on long haul and people leapfrogging over you for FO slots. Remember there are many pilots out there who are working their tails off just to have an opportunity like you have now, which, in the current climate, probably won't happen for 2 years.
Nothing against you guys, but sometimes a reality check is required. Be thankful you still have a job.
TT
Yes I'm sure its hard being an SO on long haul and people leapfrogging over you for FO slots. Remember there are many pilots out there who are working their tails off just to have an opportunity like you have now, which, in the current climate, probably won't happen for 2 years.
Nothing against you guys, but sometimes a reality check is required. Be thankful you still have a job.
TT
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spare a thought for those who are still flying around in piston engine aircraft for a measley 30k a year!
HKG is a very expensive place to live especially if you have a family.
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Okay Tee Tail, lets put this into your perspective. Lets say that you are flying your piston whatever and based at XYZ airport because the company you fly for won't let you be based at ABC airport, which by the way is were you are originally from and would love to work from there. They tell you that after 3 years you can have the opportunity to apply for that base. You say okay, no sweat, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. Then the company you work for says, ahhh bin that, we are going to hire guys onto ABC base flying a brand new King Air and there's nothing you can do about it. Three years later you can't bid onto ABC because it is now full up with all the others hired behind you. How do you feel? The SO's are not complaining about their lot they are upset about the way the seniority system has been systematically destroyed by zealous management.