Solution for Financial Crisis!
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OK Bugalugs...so now I'm an "arrogant/ignorant sky god". What an insecure and angry little man you are!
Were there S/Os who joined with virtually nothing but single time? You bet there were! I've flown with them! Off the top of my head... look at the LAX F/O list to find some who joined in the 90's with little or no real multi time to speak of. Or at the many who've recently upgraded to Captain who joined the Company as cadets....did they have 5000 hours turbo prop command?
Yes, there are many S/O's have joined with twin turbo prop experience. I acknowledge that, and many that I've flown with are great guys and good pilots. But...so what! You say you and your mates got your experience the "hard way". How do you think we got here? It's the constant complaining by some on this forum who imply that my mates and me have had it the easy way that gets up my nose!
Do you really think it was easy to get into Cathay in the eighties or early nineties? Was it the "easy way" back then? Do you think it has been easy to endure the never-ending degradations to our conditions and the pay cuts? The constant losses in court battles. The delays to our upgrade due to ASL (with no bypass pay)? To watch 49 of our mates GET FIRED! What pay cuts have you endured?
Were we allowed to go right-to-left on the 400? No way! Were we offered bypass pay to remain on our bases? No way! How did all that fit with our expectations? How does enduring all that make my mates and me the "bad guys" in this mess? The arrogant sky gods as you so poignantly put it?
And if someone posts that we got a few stock options in return, or six million Oz in the bank, I'm going to lose it!
Yes....I was very proud to get hired by Cathay back in 91. You couldn't help but be proud! Did the pride turn into arrogance? Ya, probably a little bit, and quite rightly so! I'm still proud to fly for Cathay!
The point I was trying to make was that, even for a Dash 8 pilot, RJ pilot, whatever, nine to 12 years to the left seat of a wide body commercial airliner is a quick time to upgrade in a legacy carrier... and nothing to COMPLAIN about. To complain about that, to blame and flame the extendees, to constantly crow about your vast experience, that is arrogance!
What other legacy airline could you have joined and upgraded that quickly? Name one!
Some people joined Cathay during a recruitment ban. Some F/O's take advantage of the different conditions to upgrade to captain early on the freighter (out of seniority), and some Captains take advantage of the different conditions to extend on the freighter. Who are the bad guys?
There are today, I believe, 28 different sets of conditions in the Company. That is the problem, and that's what we can complain about. That's the plot I spoke of. With that many different sets of conditions, only one side wins, and it's not the pilots.
Now that's something to complain about!
Were there S/Os who joined with virtually nothing but single time? You bet there were! I've flown with them! Off the top of my head... look at the LAX F/O list to find some who joined in the 90's with little or no real multi time to speak of. Or at the many who've recently upgraded to Captain who joined the Company as cadets....did they have 5000 hours turbo prop command?
Yes, there are many S/O's have joined with twin turbo prop experience. I acknowledge that, and many that I've flown with are great guys and good pilots. But...so what! You say you and your mates got your experience the "hard way". How do you think we got here? It's the constant complaining by some on this forum who imply that my mates and me have had it the easy way that gets up my nose!
Do you really think it was easy to get into Cathay in the eighties or early nineties? Was it the "easy way" back then? Do you think it has been easy to endure the never-ending degradations to our conditions and the pay cuts? The constant losses in court battles. The delays to our upgrade due to ASL (with no bypass pay)? To watch 49 of our mates GET FIRED! What pay cuts have you endured?
Were we allowed to go right-to-left on the 400? No way! Were we offered bypass pay to remain on our bases? No way! How did all that fit with our expectations? How does enduring all that make my mates and me the "bad guys" in this mess? The arrogant sky gods as you so poignantly put it?
And if someone posts that we got a few stock options in return, or six million Oz in the bank, I'm going to lose it!
Yes....I was very proud to get hired by Cathay back in 91. You couldn't help but be proud! Did the pride turn into arrogance? Ya, probably a little bit, and quite rightly so! I'm still proud to fly for Cathay!
The point I was trying to make was that, even for a Dash 8 pilot, RJ pilot, whatever, nine to 12 years to the left seat of a wide body commercial airliner is a quick time to upgrade in a legacy carrier... and nothing to COMPLAIN about. To complain about that, to blame and flame the extendees, to constantly crow about your vast experience, that is arrogance!
What other legacy airline could you have joined and upgraded that quickly? Name one!
Some people joined Cathay during a recruitment ban. Some F/O's take advantage of the different conditions to upgrade to captain early on the freighter (out of seniority), and some Captains take advantage of the different conditions to extend on the freighter. Who are the bad guys?
There are today, I believe, 28 different sets of conditions in the Company. That is the problem, and that's what we can complain about. That's the plot I spoke of. With that many different sets of conditions, only one side wins, and it's not the pilots.
Now that's something to complain about!
Last edited by raven11; 31st Mar 2009 at 00:08.
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Tucked in raven11's post is this little gem:
Obviously it's the managers who are the real culprits here, and while we flame each other, they're making like bandits.
Focus on the real enemy!
Who are the bad guys?
Focus on the real enemy!
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Clarification
Raven :
You are questioning why someone might be concerned about 10 years to command.
I know that if you joined in 1991 and if you did not make command before ASL you probably did 10 years in the right seat (FO from Day 1) Those before you spent on average less than five years, and many of them are still here after 15 years in the left seat and now several extensions making 17.....20 years in the left seat on A scales. If we go to 65 soon they could see 27 or 30 years in the left seat.
So I ask you Raven : How long will you be in the left seat with R55 vs R65 ?
There is no way that anyone who joined after 2000 can hope to make anywhere near the kind of career earnings of anyone joining prior to 1999-2000. You would not earn that even if you make Captain in the next 3-5 years. It also gets exponentially worse the longer after 1999-2000 that you get hired.
Age 65 is a bad deal for any current SO/FO as it would mean you would make only slightly more money (in some cases less) than under the current contract (assuming people stop taking extensions!) It was a bad deal even before this current downturn. With the downturn it only makes the issue that much worse. Do the math. As you get farther from a DOJ of 2000 you will spend more and more time at the FO level. Our long haul airline can only expand so far. Once that stops then career progression stops. Add in the 5 year cycle of downturns and you will have a lot of career FOs. Adding in age 65 only means that they will make about the same as current contract only giving up ten more years of their life to get it.
I know that a lot of senior Pilots want to extend a few years. Fair enough, but let's not sell the farm to get something that for most Pilots (as SOs and FOs out number captains 3 to 1) will not benefit from. Do we really want to go to 65 ? Why don't we structure the new deal around retirement at 60 ?
When we all joined, it was a given you would retire at 55. If you wanted to work on, then it would be on the outside. Anyone who thought otherwise and is now reaching 55 (and I am amazed at how many do think otherwise) you gambled and unfourtunately your horse did not come in.
A contract is still a contract even in HK court's eyes.
I am tired of people telling me that I would or would not want to retire at 55. If I need to work after 55 I will, but not here at BBA. That is not the deal I signed up for. If , down the road the contract is changed I will re-evaluate. I can tell you this, every day I work hard on my arrangements for life after BBA and I will not let myself do 35 years of Ultra Long Haul !!!!! It might be nice to make command sometime before age 60.
Peace out
You are questioning why someone might be concerned about 10 years to command.
I know that if you joined in 1991 and if you did not make command before ASL you probably did 10 years in the right seat (FO from Day 1) Those before you spent on average less than five years, and many of them are still here after 15 years in the left seat and now several extensions making 17.....20 years in the left seat on A scales. If we go to 65 soon they could see 27 or 30 years in the left seat.
So I ask you Raven : How long will you be in the left seat with R55 vs R65 ?
There is no way that anyone who joined after 2000 can hope to make anywhere near the kind of career earnings of anyone joining prior to 1999-2000. You would not earn that even if you make Captain in the next 3-5 years. It also gets exponentially worse the longer after 1999-2000 that you get hired.
Age 65 is a bad deal for any current SO/FO as it would mean you would make only slightly more money (in some cases less) than under the current contract (assuming people stop taking extensions!) It was a bad deal even before this current downturn. With the downturn it only makes the issue that much worse. Do the math. As you get farther from a DOJ of 2000 you will spend more and more time at the FO level. Our long haul airline can only expand so far. Once that stops then career progression stops. Add in the 5 year cycle of downturns and you will have a lot of career FOs. Adding in age 65 only means that they will make about the same as current contract only giving up ten more years of their life to get it.
I know that a lot of senior Pilots want to extend a few years. Fair enough, but let's not sell the farm to get something that for most Pilots (as SOs and FOs out number captains 3 to 1) will not benefit from. Do we really want to go to 65 ? Why don't we structure the new deal around retirement at 60 ?
When we all joined, it was a given you would retire at 55. If you wanted to work on, then it would be on the outside. Anyone who thought otherwise and is now reaching 55 (and I am amazed at how many do think otherwise) you gambled and unfourtunately your horse did not come in.
A contract is still a contract even in HK court's eyes.
I am tired of people telling me that I would or would not want to retire at 55. If I need to work after 55 I will, but not here at BBA. That is not the deal I signed up for. If , down the road the contract is changed I will re-evaluate. I can tell you this, every day I work hard on my arrangements for life after BBA and I will not let myself do 35 years of Ultra Long Haul !!!!! It might be nice to make command sometime before age 60.
Peace out
Raven, if you had read all the way to the end of my post before you "lost it" I believe you'll find we came to the same conclusion, bad guy = CX . Squabbling, willy waving and denigrating each other is not the way forward. And serves no purpose but to further divide the pilot group and empower CX management.
Back to the root question, what to do about it? Is there a solution that gives everybody the option of working to 60-65, without stretching time to command out towards 20 years! Being that it's already 10+, I recall Crunchero has already looked at the numbers and come up with around 18years to command for todays new joiner!
Whats the solution? I don't know
Buggs ( at anger management )
Back to the root question, what to do about it? Is there a solution that gives everybody the option of working to 60-65, without stretching time to command out towards 20 years! Being that it's already 10+, I recall Crunchero has already looked at the numbers and come up with around 18years to command for todays new joiner!
Whats the solution? I don't know
Buggs ( at anger management )
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Oh Kitsune you’re such a riot. Ha, ha, ha, ha…
I have no idea what previous post of mine you’re referring to…since you obviously didn’t read my last one before responding with your usual immaturity. But I can’t help myself, I’ll bite, when exactly were my mates and I bent over? Was it during MSS when 49 of them got fired? I’m sorry we weren’t brave enough for you Kitsune, I’m sure that in the very near future you and your friends will show us what true bravado really is.
Are you completely incapable of serious debate? If not, then do us all a favour and just return to MSN or video games, or whatever other mindless pursuit you’re more suited to.
Five Green. Did you read what I said in my last post? Did that post read like we’ve been on a gravy train here? I don’t know what you’ve been told, but if people like Kitsune briefed you on our history then you’ve been seriously mislead.
Are you suggesting that those of us that have put up with so much for 20 years must now just suck it up and leave? All our pay cuts, loss of command seniority due to ASL, our friends getting fired, all our trials and tribulations over the years, we should just swat it all away and leave, so that someone who joined in 2006, who’s never endured a single pay cut or degradation to his conditions, can get promoted? Are you serious?
But you’re in the majority you say. So what! We were in the vast majority when ASL hit us. It didn’t mean a thing!
There are very few guys remaining who upgraded in five years or less. But to answer your question, I’ve been here for 18 years and a Captain for the last eight. Are you saying I should just leave at 55, with a total of 10 years in the left seat, because any more time would be selfish on my part? That I should just take your word for it that you will leave at 55? Even though I’ve heard it all before, but the honest truth is that NOBODY DOES! And neither will you. Look around you, how may do you see quitting at 55?
Let me ask you this Five Green. Have you even considered or factored that all those F/O’s who are leapfrogging their mates to take freighter commands OUT OF SENIORITY are increasing your time to command? If they didn’t do it (if they were more “brave” and stood their ground like Kitsune would) then the company would have no choice but to offer you a faster command…in seniority. Why no anger towards these guys? Are they not delaying your command? Isn’t that sauce for the gander? Why is it that only those people that “extend” are the selfish ones? Can you answer me that question?
Five Green. Thank you for at least posting a serious argument (unlike you know who) but I must say I’m tired of this. I’ve tried to reason and debate, be moderate and conciliatory in my tone, but I just can’t anymore….I suggest you read Apple Tree Yard’s last post for the hard truth.
I have no idea what previous post of mine you’re referring to…since you obviously didn’t read my last one before responding with your usual immaturity. But I can’t help myself, I’ll bite, when exactly were my mates and I bent over? Was it during MSS when 49 of them got fired? I’m sorry we weren’t brave enough for you Kitsune, I’m sure that in the very near future you and your friends will show us what true bravado really is.
Are you completely incapable of serious debate? If not, then do us all a favour and just return to MSN or video games, or whatever other mindless pursuit you’re more suited to.
Five Green. Did you read what I said in my last post? Did that post read like we’ve been on a gravy train here? I don’t know what you’ve been told, but if people like Kitsune briefed you on our history then you’ve been seriously mislead.
Are you suggesting that those of us that have put up with so much for 20 years must now just suck it up and leave? All our pay cuts, loss of command seniority due to ASL, our friends getting fired, all our trials and tribulations over the years, we should just swat it all away and leave, so that someone who joined in 2006, who’s never endured a single pay cut or degradation to his conditions, can get promoted? Are you serious?
But you’re in the majority you say. So what! We were in the vast majority when ASL hit us. It didn’t mean a thing!
There are very few guys remaining who upgraded in five years or less. But to answer your question, I’ve been here for 18 years and a Captain for the last eight. Are you saying I should just leave at 55, with a total of 10 years in the left seat, because any more time would be selfish on my part? That I should just take your word for it that you will leave at 55? Even though I’ve heard it all before, but the honest truth is that NOBODY DOES! And neither will you. Look around you, how may do you see quitting at 55?
Let me ask you this Five Green. Have you even considered or factored that all those F/O’s who are leapfrogging their mates to take freighter commands OUT OF SENIORITY are increasing your time to command? If they didn’t do it (if they were more “brave” and stood their ground like Kitsune would) then the company would have no choice but to offer you a faster command…in seniority. Why no anger towards these guys? Are they not delaying your command? Isn’t that sauce for the gander? Why is it that only those people that “extend” are the selfish ones? Can you answer me that question?
Five Green. Thank you for at least posting a serious argument (unlike you know who) but I must say I’m tired of this. I’ve tried to reason and debate, be moderate and conciliatory in my tone, but I just can’t anymore….I suggest you read Apple Tree Yard’s last post for the hard truth.
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Are you suggesting that those of us that have put up with so much for 20 years must now just suck it up and leave? All our pay cuts, loss of command seniority due to ASL, our friends getting fired, all our trials and tribulations over the years, we should just swat it all away and leave, so that someone who joined in 2006, who’s never endured a single pay cut or degradation to his conditions, can get promoted? Are you serious?
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Kitsune
You are really brave too. Signing a sub scale contract to fly with Cathay. You are real brave...you took it up the ar..se from day one. least we held out a few years.
Raven..keep up the good work ...it good to see you bring out the hard facts to the children. Its a pity the fathers of the 'geek generation' didn't install some manners and respect and you have to do it.
You are really brave too. Signing a sub scale contract to fly with Cathay. You are real brave...you took it up the ar..se from day one. least we held out a few years.
Raven..keep up the good work ...it good to see you bring out the hard facts to the children. Its a pity the fathers of the 'geek generation' didn't install some manners and respect and you have to do it.
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Empathy ????
Panza : Drop the insults please and let's try and hold and adult conversation.
Raven :
ASL was a ****e deal for you and your colleagues. Having gone through a huge reduction in your career earnings, please look at what any retirement age extension means to current FOs and SOs. Also please remember we are not saying no way no how, but I cannot see that the Co. is going to come to the table with anything that would compensate. I still cannot see why they would when they have complete control at the moment.
As a comparison though, even after ASL you get 10 years in the LH seat. If we extend you could get up to 20. If we extend current FO/SOs will be lucky to get eight years in the left seat TOTAL. Some SO/FOs may even get more time in the left seat under the current contract. Seems hard to believe but the system will basically stop if 65 goes through. The only upgrades will be through expansion, and I think we can all agree that we will not be expanding again in the next 5-8 years. If it is status quo (and extensions stop) then those close to command could get in and possibly have 10 or 12 years (depending on their age of course) .
Having the majority of what prior to ASL ? Level headed diplomats ? What I mean is that we can talk all we want but this should come to vote (if not get ready to go to court!) and if so as the majority of our pilots will be negatively affected then, unless the compensation is interesting and fair, a retirement ar 65 deal will not pass.
I completely agree with you that those taking early frieghter commads have increase my time to a decent paying left seat ! The logic being that if somehow nobody took the frieghter commands then that would force the company to get rid of freighter payscales and give 747-400 commands vs pax and frieghter.
Ironically, this only makes the 65 issue more difficult as those that have not taken "early" commands will be more affected than those who did.
Finally Raven, I categorically tell you that I do not want to be working past 55. Under the current contract (you remember the one we all agreed to) I have half a shot at retiring at 55, if Retirement 65 happens leaving early will be more difficult to say the least. I certainly know a few who have gone at 55, they all seemed to have great plans and were looking forward to new things.
Peace Out
Raven :
ASL was a ****e deal for you and your colleagues. Having gone through a huge reduction in your career earnings, please look at what any retirement age extension means to current FOs and SOs. Also please remember we are not saying no way no how, but I cannot see that the Co. is going to come to the table with anything that would compensate. I still cannot see why they would when they have complete control at the moment.
As a comparison though, even after ASL you get 10 years in the LH seat. If we extend you could get up to 20. If we extend current FO/SOs will be lucky to get eight years in the left seat TOTAL. Some SO/FOs may even get more time in the left seat under the current contract. Seems hard to believe but the system will basically stop if 65 goes through. The only upgrades will be through expansion, and I think we can all agree that we will not be expanding again in the next 5-8 years. If it is status quo (and extensions stop) then those close to command could get in and possibly have 10 or 12 years (depending on their age of course) .
Having the majority of what prior to ASL ? Level headed diplomats ? What I mean is that we can talk all we want but this should come to vote (if not get ready to go to court!) and if so as the majority of our pilots will be negatively affected then, unless the compensation is interesting and fair, a retirement ar 65 deal will not pass.
I completely agree with you that those taking early frieghter commads have increase my time to a decent paying left seat ! The logic being that if somehow nobody took the frieghter commands then that would force the company to get rid of freighter payscales and give 747-400 commands vs pax and frieghter.
Ironically, this only makes the 65 issue more difficult as those that have not taken "early" commands will be more affected than those who did.
Finally Raven, I categorically tell you that I do not want to be working past 55. Under the current contract (you remember the one we all agreed to) I have half a shot at retiring at 55, if Retirement 65 happens leaving early will be more difficult to say the least. I certainly know a few who have gone at 55, they all seemed to have great plans and were looking forward to new things.
Peace Out
