DFO Update and DEC's!!!
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DFO Update and DEC's!!!
We need to say NO NO NO!!! I wonder what the plan would have been without the demise of Oasis??? And why are all the resources being spent on people from outside the company? What about bypass pay? Why are the DEC's NOT getting a PCA but all of us are required to do one? I say again, this is just UNACCEPTABLE! Everyone, write the AOA and just say NO!
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Industrial weapons
Hi Saturn,
Would you strike over the issue? Thats what it will take. The company used their ultimate weapon in 2001, so we have to use ours if we want anything. If not, get on with your job or leave, those are the choices until the pilot group (not the AOA) grows some balls.
Would you strike over the issue? Thats what it will take. The company used their ultimate weapon in 2001, so we have to use ours if we want anything. If not, get on with your job or leave, those are the choices until the pilot group (not the AOA) grows some balls.
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Before you roast the AOA AND OR THE PILOT GROUP, does anyone know if THE AOA HAS DONE ANYTHING ?
This is a callous abuse of our COS/CONTRACT , and a load of bull from the DFO
I REPEAT 'A LOAD OF BULL !!!'
IT KEEPS GOING ON ..........AND ON
This is a callous abuse of our COS/CONTRACT , and a load of bull from the DFO
I REPEAT 'A LOAD OF BULL !!!'
IT KEEPS GOING ON ..........AND ON
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NOTHING will happen. NOTHING. Get used to that thought (you should be by now anyways!). To many chickens without heads are running around screaming - but it aint gonna change all.. Cathay and Swire knows that all too well. There are close to zero labour laws in HKG and way too many dudes thinking about me, myself and I - working on G-days - accepting discretion - changes to rosters etc - thinking they are heroes - b u t are really only a joke to them selves and others. To many little heroes. Like it or not - you live with the consequences.
I wish it was different for all of you - but time have proven that a lot of words are said - and very little action are taken. Thats one of the main reasons why Cathay is what Cathay is! Again - like it or not.
all.. Cathay and Swire knows that all too well. There are close to zero labour laws in HKG and way too many dudes thinking about me, myself and I - working on G-days - accepting discretion - changes to rosters etc - thinking they are heroes - b u t are really only a joke to them selves and others. To many little heroes. Like it or not - you live with the consequences. I wish it was different for all of you - but time have proven that a lot of words are said - and very little action are taken. Thats one of the main reasons why Cathay is what Cathay is! Again - like it or not.
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I wish it was different for all of you
accepting discretion
Last edited by The Messiah; 18th Aug 2008 at 04:35.
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The Mess,
I presume you are addressing moir. Right.
NO, my dear pen-friend
. I mean YOU and not me and you know!
Righty. 
Buddy, you seem to still have a lot to learn in this industry.
One thing is FTLS (or whatever CX calls it!) but another is what the individual pilot feels like. If I'm too fatigued, tired, stressed or anything else - I'm just "not fit" and that's got nothing to do with FTLS or Commanders discretion. That my decision - comprende. Nobody elses.
Unfortunately I have never had to use it it CX, no. Would I? What do you think maaty? What do you think?
I presume you are addressing moir. Right.
NO, my dear pen-friend
. I mean YOU and not me and you know! Righty. Buddy, you seem to still have a lot to learn in this industry.
One thing is FTLS (or whatever CX calls it!) but another is what the individual pilot feels like. If I'm too fatigued, tired, stressed or anything else - I'm just "not fit" and that's got nothing to do with FTLS or Commanders discretion. That my decision - comprende. Nobody elses.
Unfortunately I have never had to use it it CX, no. Would I? What do you think maaty? What do you think?
Last edited by Yeager; 18th Aug 2008 at 15:11. Reason: hat- and spelling police
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Quote:
I wish it was different for all of you
Don't you mean us? ie. you included?
Quote:
accepting discretion
While it is called 'Commanders Discretion' it in fact needs to be accepted by ALL the crew, YOU included. Have you ever said no?
I wish it was different for all of you
Don't you mean us? ie. you included?
Quote:
accepting discretion
While it is called 'Commanders Discretion' it in fact needs to be accepted by ALL the crew, YOU included. Have you ever said no?
F/O 1 - Told by the Commander if he continued to feel this way, he (the Capt.) would be filling out a CAR expressing that the F/O was being uncooperative and as such, would be jeopardising a possible Command opportunity when it came time for The Star Chamber to sift through his file(s).
F/O 2 - Was called into the Chief Pilot's office for "tea 'n' bisquies" (I think he said Tim-Tams) and was 'advised' to consider "towing the Company Line as your Command is very close".
2 blokes speak up for feeling like ****e at "oh-dark hundred" body clock time, and one gets called to the 3rd floor to explain himself.
What's your thoughts now Messiah ?
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F/O 1 - Told by the Commander if he continued to feel this way, he (the Capt.) would be filling out a CAR expressing that the F/O was being uncooperative and as such, would be jeopardising a possible Command opportunity when it came time for The Star Chamber to sift through his file(s).
!
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I wish it was different for all of you
way too many dudes thinking about me, myself and I - working on G-days - accepting discretion -
What's your thoughts now Messiah ?
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"Well this so called Commander (I use the term loosely in this case) needs to pull is head in... what a ! 
"
If I was a commander and I was prepared to use discretion and the F/O was not then I would have the paperwork reflect that position. If the F/O (in this case) is genuinely too fatigued to operate then he should have no qualms about explaining his decision at a later time.
A decision to put 300-400 pax up in a hotel and delay the flight by 11 hours or so is one all crew members should take seriously and if you are just doing it to stuff up the company then, for me, that is not professional and will not get my support. If you are unsafe to operate due to cumulative fatigue then fair enough.
! "If I was a commander and I was prepared to use discretion and the F/O was not then I would have the paperwork reflect that position. If the F/O (in this case) is genuinely too fatigued to operate then he should have no qualms about explaining his decision at a later time.
A decision to put 300-400 pax up in a hotel and delay the flight by 11 hours or so is one all crew members should take seriously and if you are just doing it to stuff up the company then, for me, that is not professional and will not get my support. If you are unsafe to operate due to cumulative fatigue then fair enough.
Yes I agree, if the other crew are fatigued then no discretion, end of story.
However the 3rd floor will look at ME if WE don't use it. ( in situations where it is warranted ) F/O's and S/O's should remember that.
However the 3rd floor will look at ME if WE don't use it. ( in situations where it is warranted ) F/O's and S/O's should remember that.
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too true, in that the commander has to do the explaining...but discretion i dont think was designed to cover the shortfalls of lack of reserve cover from a home base.....which is where i have seen it used more than anywhere else of late
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Ref post #5 from The Messiah
Concerning discretion, I'm not sure wether I interpreted the messiah's words incorrectly.
If I'm wrong, I apologise to you in advance, however I do not believe the crew have to
agree to 'accept' it in the sense I think was portrayed. .
Commanders discretion is just that - plain and simple.
It is the COMMANDER who is deciding wether or not to use HIS discretion concerning
whatever the situation may be.
Clearly as others have implied, it is not a simple matter of "oh well we only need to extend
by 1hr and 40 minutes and all will be well, so just get back in the seat laddie, and lets be
away".
A good Commander will not only look at the legalities of any situation, but the practicalities
also, after all he is there additionally to look after the parts of the big picture that Thomo
didnt take.
Now any guy in the left seat worth his salt, will no doubt take into account, all the aspects
such as, but not limited to:
i)Firstly, is it legal, and is it sensible - if not both, the pub beckons!
ii)If discretion is not used, what are the options as far as passengers go.
iii)Aircraft serviceability, weather, and upcoming workload on the next approach.
iv)Length of preceeding duty, body clock time.
v)How much extra time will actually be required to complete the req'd task.
vi)Wether the cabin crew, if discretion is used, would be on the ball in the event of a
landing incident and having to pop the slides.
Occasionally, there may be no good solution, just a motley range of poor and diverse options.
In cases such as this, thats why the skipper carries the can, and after all those, and probably
many more aspects I've ommited, have been weighed up, he then decides wether to exercise
HIS discretion.
Now that said, it would be a less than wise skipper, who when assessing his crew, (were they
to tell him how fatigued they were from the flight just carried out, unable to rest in the 2 star
Worst Western motor Inn, been sick from the Delhi trots), decides that discretion is the way
to go, especially when significant future risk can be negated or even avoided by
deplanning the 80 pax into the airport hotel, and setting off for HK many hours later after a
suitable crew rest, ideally in a different hotel than the pax.
Conversely, you've just had the pleasure of experiencing a Cargo fire warning, dropped into
Shemya,experienced their finest winter weather, luckily your deadheading engineer has found
it was a false warning caused by a dodgy detector. Suitably isolated, (both your detector and
the jet full of anxious self-loaders in the northern pacific winter), you now realise you are soon
to be out of hours. Again, there may be no correct answer, but trying to accomodate 280 pax
in a Shemya winter, is at best fruitless, and at worst could be downright dangerous. The
skipper may well be faced with crew who are unhappy to go on, but I would suggest that
discretion to at least get to Anchorage for example may be the lesser of the evils.
Admittedly, the above are somewhat extreme examples, but the facts remain, that it is the
Commander who will decide if discretion is to be used. It does NOT have to be accepted
per se by the crew. The fact that most situations lie in the middle of such extremes does
little to point the decision making in the right direction, which is why the skipper should always
canvass all thoughts and opinions to ensure he can make an informed and reasoned decision.
That said, if an individual decides to vote with his feet and walk off the flight deck, there
probably isn't much one can do about that. It's not the military, and even though one could
point to the regs in the books concerning the authority of the Commander and how the crew
are required to follow lawful orders, the Company hasn't shot somebody for dereliction of duty
for a while now.
Whilst the individual deserter will clearly be required to justify his actions to the grown-ups,
the skipper may possibly be invited for a chat too!
So gents decide carefully, I know whose shoes I'd rather to be in!
Finally, yes we have some young skippers, and some local skippers, and genuinely I mean
no insult, because in this job, we all learn by both our own and others experiences. However,
anecdotally, a level of 'keen-ness' beyond common sense occasionally appears evident,
where they are ultra-keen to help the company out, as they may believe by opting for the
10hr rest with a pub full of pax may be a black mark in their book. For those who are so
inclined, you will guarantee more of a black mark by pressing on unnecesarily and incurring
an incident where fatigue may be later pointed to as a significant factor. One cast-iron
guarantee that you will have, is that the company will isolate themselves from you faster than
you can say profit share, by saying well it was the Commanders choice to use his discretion.
So before it gets to that stage is where ALL the other crew need to step up and speak out in
the decision phase to ensure all points are raised, reasonable and otherwise.
Then listen to the skippers decision.
After that there's two choices, you agree with him and fly, or, you pack your bags and walk.
Apolgies for serious thread drift of war and peace dimensions
Brgds to all.
(Sounds of stepping down off soap box and retiring to don steel helmet....)
If I'm wrong, I apologise to you in advance, however I do not believe the crew have to
agree to 'accept' it in the sense I think was portrayed. .
Commanders discretion is just that - plain and simple.
It is the COMMANDER who is deciding wether or not to use HIS discretion concerning
whatever the situation may be.
Clearly as others have implied, it is not a simple matter of "oh well we only need to extend
by 1hr and 40 minutes and all will be well, so just get back in the seat laddie, and lets be
away".
A good Commander will not only look at the legalities of any situation, but the practicalities
also, after all he is there additionally to look after the parts of the big picture that Thomo
didnt take.
Now any guy in the left seat worth his salt, will no doubt take into account, all the aspects
such as, but not limited to:
i)Firstly, is it legal, and is it sensible - if not both, the pub beckons!
ii)If discretion is not used, what are the options as far as passengers go.
iii)Aircraft serviceability, weather, and upcoming workload on the next approach.
iv)Length of preceeding duty, body clock time.
v)How much extra time will actually be required to complete the req'd task.
vi)Wether the cabin crew, if discretion is used, would be on the ball in the event of a
landing incident and having to pop the slides.
Occasionally, there may be no good solution, just a motley range of poor and diverse options.
In cases such as this, thats why the skipper carries the can, and after all those, and probably
many more aspects I've ommited, have been weighed up, he then decides wether to exercise
HIS discretion.
Now that said, it would be a less than wise skipper, who when assessing his crew, (were they
to tell him how fatigued they were from the flight just carried out, unable to rest in the 2 star
Worst Western motor Inn, been sick from the Delhi trots), decides that discretion is the way
to go, especially when significant future risk can be negated or even avoided by
deplanning the 80 pax into the airport hotel, and setting off for HK many hours later after a
suitable crew rest, ideally in a different hotel than the pax.
Conversely, you've just had the pleasure of experiencing a Cargo fire warning, dropped into
Shemya,experienced their finest winter weather, luckily your deadheading engineer has found
it was a false warning caused by a dodgy detector. Suitably isolated, (both your detector and
the jet full of anxious self-loaders in the northern pacific winter), you now realise you are soon
to be out of hours. Again, there may be no correct answer, but trying to accomodate 280 pax
in a Shemya winter, is at best fruitless, and at worst could be downright dangerous. The
skipper may well be faced with crew who are unhappy to go on, but I would suggest that
discretion to at least get to Anchorage for example may be the lesser of the evils.
Admittedly, the above are somewhat extreme examples, but the facts remain, that it is the
Commander who will decide if discretion is to be used. It does NOT have to be accepted
per se by the crew. The fact that most situations lie in the middle of such extremes does
little to point the decision making in the right direction, which is why the skipper should always
canvass all thoughts and opinions to ensure he can make an informed and reasoned decision.
That said, if an individual decides to vote with his feet and walk off the flight deck, there
probably isn't much one can do about that. It's not the military, and even though one could
point to the regs in the books concerning the authority of the Commander and how the crew
are required to follow lawful orders, the Company hasn't shot somebody for dereliction of duty
for a while now.
Whilst the individual deserter will clearly be required to justify his actions to the grown-ups,
the skipper may possibly be invited for a chat too!
So gents decide carefully, I know whose shoes I'd rather to be in!
Finally, yes we have some young skippers, and some local skippers, and genuinely I mean
no insult, because in this job, we all learn by both our own and others experiences. However,
anecdotally, a level of 'keen-ness' beyond common sense occasionally appears evident,
where they are ultra-keen to help the company out, as they may believe by opting for the
10hr rest with a pub full of pax may be a black mark in their book. For those who are so
inclined, you will guarantee more of a black mark by pressing on unnecesarily and incurring
an incident where fatigue may be later pointed to as a significant factor. One cast-iron
guarantee that you will have, is that the company will isolate themselves from you faster than
you can say profit share, by saying well it was the Commanders choice to use his discretion.
So before it gets to that stage is where ALL the other crew need to step up and speak out in
the decision phase to ensure all points are raised, reasonable and otherwise.
Then listen to the skippers decision.
After that there's two choices, you agree with him and fly, or, you pack your bags and walk.
Apolgies for serious thread drift of war and peace dimensions
Brgds to all.
(Sounds of stepping down off soap box and retiring to don steel helmet....)
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Dont blame the crew
Ref striker58's reply in post#10
On a personal note, if a crew member is not happy with my intention to use discretion, and I believe he has a valid reason, be it fatigue or whatever, IF I see it as a genuine reason, then MY decision becomes that discretion will not be used.
I do not give a reason to the company unless asked, and I definately do NOT drop the FO or SO in the guano by saying "well I would have but he didnt want to".
Remember gentlemen, loyalty should go both ways, and these are our fellow crew members who have enough hurdles to jump over before they get to the left seat.
We should not be adding to their problems by generating unnecessary black marks for the monday morning quarter backs to assign into their files that they can use against them at some later categorisation meeting.
In the same vein as when someone wants to know the time, you dont build him a watch. So if asked for reasons why discretion was not used, keep it simple and to the point without apportioning blame to the other members of your crew
On a personal note, if a crew member is not happy with my intention to use discretion, and I believe he has a valid reason, be it fatigue or whatever, IF I see it as a genuine reason, then MY decision becomes that discretion will not be used.
I do not give a reason to the company unless asked, and I definately do NOT drop the FO or SO in the guano by saying "well I would have but he didnt want to".
Remember gentlemen, loyalty should go both ways, and these are our fellow crew members who have enough hurdles to jump over before they get to the left seat.
We should not be adding to their problems by generating unnecessary black marks for the monday morning quarter backs to assign into their files that they can use against them at some later categorisation meeting.
In the same vein as when someone wants to know the time, you dont build him a watch. So if asked for reasons why discretion was not used, keep it simple and to the point without apportioning blame to the other members of your crew
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It's up to each individual to do their homework about this place before coming. If you can be happy with staying at whatever position you enter or your current position for your entire career at this place, then you'll be ok here. If career advancement past your current status is an absolute must or a deal breaker for you then stay away or make plans to leave asap. If you can't see this state of affairs here by the simple fact that direct entry FOs and CAs get hired ahead of existing pilots on a regular basis you're either blind or just covering your eyes for some reason.
On the other note, if I'm trying to decide if I'm too tired to fly or not and someone makes a threat about the consequences then my decision is automatically made right then & there towards the more restrictive choice just to make sure I'm not influenced by the threat to do something I really am not safe to do. I've done it before and will not hesitate to do it again. But if a less direct and more respectful approach is used then the outcome can still be differrent. It's called integrity, the core of professionalism. If you don't have it I'm truly sorry for you.
On the other note, if I'm trying to decide if I'm too tired to fly or not and someone makes a threat about the consequences then my decision is automatically made right then & there towards the more restrictive choice just to make sure I'm not influenced by the threat to do something I really am not safe to do. I've done it before and will not hesitate to do it again. But if a less direct and more respectful approach is used then the outcome can still be differrent. It's called integrity, the core of professionalism. If you don't have it I'm truly sorry for you.
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Mefisto & Busyb
You said.....
"IF I see it as a genuine reason, then MY decision becomes that discretion will not be used."
Given that this thread is about the pilot group's reaction to an unpopular 3rd floor decision; what would your reaction be if you sensed* the other crew member's politely (but firmly) declining your invitation to extend his crew duty day was purely a "political" statement..... would that meet your criteria for a genuine reason or would you "shop the barsteward"....?
* sensed... because he is wise enough not state his reasons... he just says "cannot"... politely... but firmly....
"IF I see it as a genuine reason, then MY decision becomes that discretion will not be used."
Given that this thread is about the pilot group's reaction to an unpopular 3rd floor decision; what would your reaction be if you sensed* the other crew member's politely (but firmly) declining your invitation to extend his crew duty day was purely a "political" statement..... would that meet your criteria for a genuine reason or would you "shop the barsteward"....?
* sensed... because he is wise enough not state his reasons... he just says "cannot"... politely... but firmly....
Off the Subject
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discretion
I have twice refused to go into discretion. Both flights out of Hong Kong. I dont believe leaving Hong Kong and having to use discretion as we have stand by crews that should be called out to relieve us. To give the company credit, they have never questioned my decision and I never heard from them to give a reason. Captains who fly out of HK using discretion are abusing their authority.
Now trot off to your computer and down-load some balls
Now trot off to your computer and down-load some balls