Logging RQ Time
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Logging RQ Time
Hello All
Quick question about logging RQ time in the CAD logbook when sitting with P2X rated SO.
What do you log it as...
P1-you're not exactly P1 are you?
p1 u/s - you're not exactly under supervision then are you?
p2 - you're not exactly p2 as you'd be PF when with the SO.
Any ideas?
Cheers
Quick question about logging RQ time in the CAD logbook when sitting with P2X rated SO.
What do you log it as...
P1-you're not exactly P1 are you?
p1 u/s - you're not exactly under supervision then are you?
p2 - you're not exactly p2 as you'd be PF when with the SO.
Any ideas?
Cheers
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Hey Phil, next time you log P1 - ask yourself if you are signing the log book. If not, you are not P1. And believe it or not, when the captain is asleep he/she is still technically in command.
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I'm sorry to say that I think the answer is P1u/s. Of course you can't log the bunk time either but I'd keep in a separate column if I were you as most companies count it towards total hours.
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Logging time
Vol 1 (4-1-1) says (and also backed up by the inside cover of the HKCAD log book):
If you're the captain, you log P1 for the entire sector time.
If you're the FO, you log P1-ICUS when you are at the controls AND you are the PF.
If you're the FO, you log P2 when you are at the controls AND you are the PM.
SO's log P2X when they are at the controls (doesn't specify whether PM or PF).
WP
If you're the captain, you log P1 for the entire sector time.
If you're the FO, you log P1-ICUS when you are at the controls AND you are the PF.
If you're the FO, you log P2 when you are at the controls AND you are the PM.
SO's log P2X when they are at the controls (doesn't specify whether PM or PF).
WP
Last edited by WaldoPepper; 20th Mar 2008 at 13:40. Reason: Added info
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Clear as mud I know................
I've bin told, after attempting to DEMUDIFY the Vol 1 and Logbook, that it's P2 if you are PNF. Relief or not........... But that was a while back and I can't remember who said it exacRy
I've bin told, after attempting to DEMUDIFY the Vol 1 and Logbook, that it's P2 if you are PNF. Relief or not........... But that was a while back and I can't remember who said it exacRy
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I guess that even if the CPT is asleep you are under his supervision.
I heard a story once of a CPT who would take his rest in the LHS, and make the SO do the radio from the jump seat as he stated that he didn't trust either of them!
I heard a story once of a CPT who would take his rest in the LHS, and make the SO do the radio from the jump seat as he stated that he didn't trust either of them!
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Vol 1?? That is just another example of Cathay muddying things up.
I like to use the windshield wiper analogy. The rules, as they are laid out, are like mud on a windscreen. It isn't easy to see through, but with some concentration you can peek through it. Cathay is like the windshield wiper; they come in and make a mess out of an already confusing situation.
It is very simple. You are not "in charge" when the captain is sleeping. You are simply watching things. Time that the captain is sleeping, well, try to think of that time as if they are taking a really big ****t.
You didn't log PIC when the captain went to take a ****t at your previous job, did you?
You are not the designated pilot in command, you are simply the next rung in the ladder, that is all. 
I like to use the windshield wiper analogy. The rules, as they are laid out, are like mud on a windscreen. It isn't easy to see through, but with some concentration you can peek through it. Cathay is like the windshield wiper; they come in and make a mess out of an already confusing situation.
It is very simple. You are not "in charge" when the captain is sleeping. You are simply watching things. Time that the captain is sleeping, well, try to think of that time as if they are taking a really big ****t.
You didn't log PIC when the captain went to take a ****t at your previous job, did you?
You are not the designated pilot in command, you are simply the next rung in the ladder, that is all.
Thats right, so next time you're thundering across those fark'n big hills on Y1, on a cold and dark ****ey night, while the skipper is tucked up warm and snuggly in bed, and the number two engine throws a blade though the side of the cabin and proceeds to try and shake itself off the wing...... while the cabin rapidly depressurizes ..... rather than reaching for your oxy mask and pushing the thrust up..... you can turn to the brand new S/O (no disrespect!) sitting next to you and say.... "well bloggs, you have the con, I'm off to the bathroom for a really big ****e, because I'M NOT IN CHARGE! " 
Jizz ... Yeah good point mate, must remember not to post after more than 3 beers!!
I'm not arguing that we should be logging P1, I agree that's not appropriate, however P1 U/S and P2 don't really fit either. Perhaps we're in need of a P1x ?
Not that I lose sleep at night over it .
I'm not arguing that we should be logging P1, I agree that's not appropriate, however P1 U/S and P2 don't really fit either. Perhaps we're in need of a P1x ?
Not that I lose sleep at night over it .
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Not much help coming from the CAD...
I sent them an e-mail asking the question. They replied and said they'd get back to me. Weeks later I still had not received a reply. Sent them another e-mail to which I never recieved a relpy......
I sent them an e-mail asking the question. They replied and said they'd get back to me. Weeks later I still had not received a reply. Sent them another e-mail to which I never recieved a relpy......
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The F/O or RQ or RP when acting as PILOT FLYING can log P1 U/S for the time at the controls, so long as he does the Takeoff and Landing. Otherwise you log P2......... Simple.......... your sector............ log P1 U/S.............
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From Vol1:
... detailed in CAD 54, HKCAD Requirements ... (see below for link to CAD 54, Chapter 1 - General, Appendix C)
... nominated as the Commander of the flight can log the whole sector time as P1 or PIC
b. The First Officer (FO), or Relief Qualified Pilot (RQ), or Relief Pilot (RP), when acting as Pilot Flying (PF), can log P1 (U/S) for the time spent at the flying controls as long as he/she accomplishes both the take-off and landing. Otherwise he/ she will log P2
c. If, for operational reasons, e.g. crosswind outside FO limits, it is not possible for the FO to accomplish either the take-off or the landing, he/she can still count the time at the flying controls as P1(U /S) hours
d. The FO, when acting as Pilot Not Flying (PNF), can log P2 for the time spent at the flying controls.
e. The Second Officer(cruise relief) can record P2X for time spent at the flight controls
NOTE: Except for the Commander, time spent outside the control seat for rest purposes cannot be recorded as flight time
Conclusion: No-one except designated commander can log bunk time. It does not say captain have to be in the bunk (or not) while you log PICUS.
Reality: Many FOs log all flight time they are on board, even in the bunk. Possible the latter as PM time. Whether it counts towards duty time or overtime is a different issue, and should not be confused with logbook time. It should be quite easy to spot as no pilot should ever have a logboog entry (as FO) of more than 12 hours.
See also CAD 54, page 45-50 (Part 1, Appendix C)
Clear as mud!
... detailed in CAD 54, HKCAD Requirements ... (see below for link to CAD 54, Chapter 1 - General, Appendix C)
... nominated as the Commander of the flight can log the whole sector time as P1 or PIC
b. The First Officer (FO), or Relief Qualified Pilot (RQ), or Relief Pilot (RP), when acting as Pilot Flying (PF), can log P1 (U/S) for the time spent at the flying controls as long as he/she accomplishes both the take-off and landing. Otherwise he/ she will log P2
c. If, for operational reasons, e.g. crosswind outside FO limits, it is not possible for the FO to accomplish either the take-off or the landing, he/she can still count the time at the flying controls as P1(U /S) hours
d. The FO, when acting as Pilot Not Flying (PNF), can log P2 for the time spent at the flying controls.
e. The Second Officer(cruise relief) can record P2X for time spent at the flight controls
NOTE: Except for the Commander, time spent outside the control seat for rest purposes cannot be recorded as flight time
Conclusion: No-one except designated commander can log bunk time. It does not say captain have to be in the bunk (or not) while you log PICUS.
Reality: Many FOs log all flight time they are on board, even in the bunk. Possible the latter as PM time. Whether it counts towards duty time or overtime is a different issue, and should not be confused with logbook time. It should be quite easy to spot as no pilot should ever have a logboog entry (as FO) of more than 12 hours.
See also CAD 54, page 45-50 (Part 1, Appendix C)
Clear as mud!
Last edited by TheDrop; 12th Nov 2009 at 09:45. Reason: Inserted clarification of quote source
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Time on Task
It should be quite easy to spot as no pilot should ever have a logboog entry (as FO) of more than 12 hours.
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If the block time was 12 hours, and one was RPIC for 5 hours...my understanding is one can log 5 hours as P1 u/s as per the CAD guidelines if one is P1 rated and the PF for the time in the seat. But what happens to the other 7 hours? Is that logged as P2? I take the point of not logging anytime when not in a control seat...so does one log it as WAC OFF time (Walk Arounds Completed Officer) or does the 7 hours disappear into the atmosphere? That then means that the Total Time that can be logged is 5 hours only. This would also apply even if it was the RPICs sector as well.