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The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

Old 18th Aug 2012, 16:34
  #1461 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Here and there
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Fire away!
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Old 18th Aug 2012, 16:53
  #1462 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
Yes, it seems to have been yet another Airbus Mystery Brake Lock event.

Emirates A388 at Hong Kong on Apr 7th 2012, blew tyres on landing

Of course this kind of mechanical failure thing never happens to CX or KA.

CX A330 thrust control failure and 230kt landing with wheel fire.

Last edited by Meccano; 18th Aug 2012 at 17:06.
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Old 19th Aug 2012, 03:01
  #1463 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
The EK problem is a well known A380 problem, not a A330 one.
I still suspect they accidentaly had max braking selected.

What was the xwind for the landing. Was it above the autoland xwind limit? I know there were a lot af GA happening at the same time due to the Xwind.
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Old 19th Aug 2012, 03:24
  #1464 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Posts: 353
And then there was this one, same day I believe as HKA:

Last edited by Sue Ridgepipe; 19th Aug 2012 at 03:25.
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Old 19th Aug 2012, 03:59
  #1465 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Posts: 674
Xwind with autoland is 20knots I believe.

Not sure about the wind, but I do know it was rough as guts, with windshear and lots of go arounds.
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Old 19th Aug 2012, 05:46
  #1466 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: home
Posts: 2
HKA Historian is right on the money.

I work there. I see the rubbish these guys promote as "standards". Management is full of self serving xenophobic clowns pretending to know what they are doing. They surround themselves with yes-men and promote as such. FO's are encouraged to come in on days off to work in the office for free so as to win favor with management for command opportunities - and so many of the spineless fools do. What gets some pilots marked as career FO's in one airline gets them promoted at HKA. FO's holding meetings with management pilots to report what other pilots said or did all in an effort to try to win brownie points with management. And it obviously worked for a few. Rumors of FO's coming into the office and working for 8+ hours (for free of course) to edit (make up) flight plans for the CAD inspections... One older FO told me of his base training with another 5 or 6 new joiners. After the flight the BTC recorded TWO landings from the 15 or 18 performed.

LGW? How can there be so many other airlines going to LHR / LGW from HK and HKA can manage to sell 5, 10 or 20 seats a flight? How many times does CX go to LHR? Four flights a day I think. Then there's BA and VA.... And HKA get sometimes 5 or 6 passengers a flight on a service offering cheaper seats than the competitions economy seats?? Go anywhere and ask Joe Public what he knows of HKA let alone the LGW flight. NOTHING. Zero advertising. Zero public awareness. IDIOTS.

Standards? What an insult. TRE/I's turing up to pre flight briefings, sim sessions and at the office in tracksuit tops over their uniform and walking through the terminal as such. Jeans, tee shirt and trainers for the sim sessions.... At a serious airline that would get you sent home, and rightfully so. If you fools can't even stick by a dress code what chance of maintaining any other resemblance of standards? A friend recently told me the TRE arrived 20 mins late for the sim and then announced they'll only do "2 and bit" hours of the scheduled 4 hour RT/PC because he had plans and wanted to be home sooner. And you question why or if they cannot perform a cross wind landing properly?? When they can't even agree on what the standard calls down an ILS let alone dispatch minima then more technical issues are as they are!!!!!

We're an airline packed with incompetence. What's worse is they refuse to acknowledge a damn thing and blame the ground staff, our competition or the EU economy. If you can't even admit your mistakes how the hell can you progress and improve?? At last the CAD has stepped in. We deserve it. Too many LCC 320 heroes without a clue as to long haul ops let alone what an open, honest and safe airline is. CRM? There's another joke. CRM instructors get appointed due their connections and receive a few extra dollars to spit out a powerpoint presentation on topics they have zero actual credentials in anyway. And that same standard is reflected on the flight deck.

Line training standards are the same. Different TRE/I's all crapping on from a different song sheet and repeating "At Air Asia / Air Macau / Tiger / Jetstar we did it this way......" And then if you show the slightest form of knowledge or question their incorrect procedure by opening up one of those "FCOM" thingies then you're told to shut up and the same "In my previous airline....."

So when these guys are the "leaders" and setting the standards what do you expect? I do hope someone from the CAD reads this. And I hope

The frustrating thing is that the airline is full over well qualified pilots who could sort out this crap within 6 months. This isn't wanted because the standards they deliver are not determined by your nationality and need to stick together as such.

But hey, look at the bigger picture. You CX and KA guys shouldn't be speaking of standards. What are your minimum entry requirements nowadays? ZERO hours. At least HKA requires jet time. I've been HKA for 2 years now. I'm leaving. Whether or not this latest incident is pilot error or another airbus quirk it at least draws more attention to these clowns and HOPEFULLY the CAD will really say enough is enough.
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Old 19th Aug 2012, 14:27
  #1467 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Noo Yoik
Posts: 126
The EK problem is a well known A380 problem, not a A330 one.
Then I'm afraid you don't know the A330 very well.

We had an A330 stuck at the holding point for two hours in my (european national) airline! The brakes would not release, no matter what they tried.
Its a well known gremlin, and Airbus recognise it by telling you not to arm the Autobrake before take off until the Flight Controls Check is done.
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Old 19th Aug 2012, 23:14
  #1468 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Global
Age: 48
Posts: 62
Understand the frustrations. But Singapore Airlines, BA are examples of airlines with cadet programs starting with zero hour pilots. However, because they are zero hours, they are technically a clean slate not tainted by any substandard procedures that may have been used as examples but indoctrinated in the culture of the company. That being said, the premise has to be that the company already has a strong foundation in the said SOPs, FCOM and CRM culture for that to be true.
So having 'jet' time or previous experience is only good to the point on handling skills and SA building. Once it becomes intrusive in benchmarking SOPs to what was familiar and not necessarily the most ideal method...then it becomes a different story
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Old 20th Aug 2012, 14:35
  #1469 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Poland
Age: 62
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This lot are an insult to the AOC there are given by the CAD.Hopefully this time CAD will flex its authority and sort them out.We the public pay taxes for the CAD to regulate the airlines and provide the public with a safe system..Why are there so many incompetent foreigners working there in the first place.?
I heard some don't even have proper licences and dubious log -books.!!!!!
Interesting about Singaporeans thought, nothing goes wrong in Singapore, all is perfect and always happy ..la, why are they here.!!!they all love Singapore.

Last edited by DUSKY DOG; 20th Aug 2012 at 14:39.
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Old 20th Aug 2012, 16:50
  #1470 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Nice
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Amazing the diatribe here, huge long posts....the guys here who came with 320 ratings and got a 330 did a great thing, a bunch are highly qualified and capable..and more than capable of now jumping to sandpit or more established carriers..but from what I hear are quite comfortable getting paid well to fly simple rosters.
Those that can't go anywhere better will suffer and won't win. No one really cares, as for the time being they are happy. Those whinging I expect are FOs and I don't blame them one bit, to upgrade you need some order and plan

Last edited by Typhoontimmy; 20th Aug 2012 at 16:52.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 05:25
  #1471 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Jakarta
Posts: 40
Grrr HKA and HKE management are the worst ever experienced in my entire life.

I was very fortunate to leave this group a while ago now and have made it my mission to spread the word to people considering a move there. DO NOT DO IT!

'terpsops' is obviously a person with great integrity who clearly has lived the HKA nightmare and you should heed his warning.

It will be at least another half decade before HKA and HKE will be worth your time and effort and that is only if they employ a new upper management team NOW to clean up the filthy mess left by years of incompetance.

Good luck to all unemployed or stuck in worse places. But I recommend getting out of flying all together for a different career is better than working for HKA/HKE.

The stupidity of the management will amaze you. It is even worse than India the middle east and China most times. They can pretend all they want but as a pilot you are no better than a public toilet cleaner to them.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 13:25
  #1472 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia PA
Age: 59
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FO's are encouraged to come in on days off to work in the office for free so as to win favor with management for command opportunities - and so many of the spineless fools do.
Most of us are aware of the restrictions imposed on Hainan airlines after their blatant disregard for flight and duty time limitations. Perhaps HKA wants even more restrictions imposed on them for encouraging working on a day off? Maybe a critical or mandatory day off.

I know what I would do... If I saw an F/O working for free on a day off to further their command prospects I would make a friendly and anonymous call to the CAD to inform them. Maybe the CAD will do a 'spot check' and discover the person illegally woking. The result might be another 6-12 months of restrictions and no expansion.

For the F/O that gets caught; he can kiss his job goodbye because someone will need to get the blame and good luck getting another job. Oh and do not go walking down any dark alleys because many people will want your kneecaps broken.

How can it be SO clear and obvious to us how to act and run a business but seems so unclear for the management? Are they trying to get the AOC revoked? What the F%$k is wrong with these incompetents?

Last edited by Delayed Flap App; 21st Aug 2012 at 13:33.
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Old 21st Aug 2012, 13:55
  #1473 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
What the F%$k is wrong with these incompetents?
You'll probably ask the same question when you call the CAD, and they tell you they are not interested.
Old 22nd Aug 2012, 01:44
  #1474 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Poland
Age: 62
Posts: 62
Right on ,its CAD that have screwed up the most by letting this all happen, and will come back to haunt them WHEN a major accident reveals their inaction ON THEIR OWN TURF..

Last edited by DUSKY DOG; 22nd Aug 2012 at 01:46.
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Old 7th Sep 2012, 15:22
  #1475 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 673
SCMP Lai See, 7-Sep-12

Readers will know that Hong Kong Airlines has suffered some turbulence recently - racking up bills with the Airport Authority; banned from using air bridges (which means it has to bus passengers to the terminal building); refused permission by the Civil Aviation Department from increasing flights; irritation on the part of passengers at the sudden cancellation of flights and so on. Recently it announced it was stopping its business-class only long-haul flights to London.

However, measures have been taken to improve matters. We understand that Chen Feng, the chairman of HNA, the airline's parent company, has decreed that all Hong Kong Airline's aircraft should carry in their cockpits an image of the Avalokitesvara, a Buddhist image. It may not be a great airline, but now it is at least a blessed one.
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Old 7th Sep 2012, 17:08
  #1476 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Sunny Europe
Posts: 55
Will there be some incense sticks next? Maybe a lion dance b4 each flight will help as well...
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Old 8th Sep 2012, 04:28
  #1477 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
More like incest sticks
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Old 9th Sep 2012, 05:25
  #1478 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mos Eisley
Posts: 36
Angry Give HKA Management a Break!!!

Gee guys, give the management a break, after all they are taking action after a thorough "fault mode analysis" of their problems. It goes something like this:

Problem: HKA can't make money and fail at every venture attempted, despite Hainan throwing unlimited funds at the company.

Therefore, are HKA's problems because of:

1. Incompetent management at all levels,
2. A total lack of any reasonable business plan, or,
3. Some deity is upset and needs appeasing?

Obviously it is answer number 3 if you have half-a-brain., and that sums it all up nicely!

Sora Bulq is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2012, 11:12
  #1479 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
Hi all,

I'm replying to this thread as an actual pilot on the A320 fleet.

I am one of the substandard Southern European pilots. It is true most of us guys have 10000 hours plus, most of those on type, gained within busy European airspace flying into challenging airports. I must admit our RT may not be up to level 6 standard but then again neither is most of the RT I have heard in HK airspace and that includes some of the major HK carriers. My logbook and that of all my collegues was checked and triple checked by CAD, they even wanted proof of cross country hours flown in 1991. So if a few guys with false licences and Parker Pen logbooks managed to get through then please tell me how they did it.

I have been in the company a little over 7 months, so far I have come across great professionals from all over, yes that includes Philipines, Malasia, and the most of the countries of South America. Unfortunately most of you will never have a chance to appreciate the talent and professionalism of most of these guys. The atmosphere on the flight deck and in the office is friendly and professional. I have never once in my time at HKA been asked to come into the office and do any sort of paperwork. Neither has it been implied that brown nosing is the route to a fast track command. As far as I am aware it is based strictly on seniority.

I found our CRM course to be informative, well taught and most of all interesting, one of the few I haven't found myself nodding off in the middle of. I have never seen the track suited TRE. All of our training is done in uniform and in the sim we are allowed to dress casual but smart.

The company is young and expanding exponentially, it is true that the rest of the departments are playing catch up and the CAD were probably right in slowing down our growth, but believe me we are aware of our weaknesses and are working very hard to remedy them.

Just cut us a bit of slack guys and please don't try and portray us as a bunch of semi standard losers who can't find work anywhere else and are rejects of Cathay Pacific because that simply could not be further from the truth.

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Old 25th Sep 2012, 11:16
  #1480 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
........And then the good fairy waved her magic wand and they all lived happily ever after
The end
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