CX B-Scale Check and Trainers
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Good morning everyone,
No ACMS, you are wrong. Our salary did not change to accommodate the lack of the 13th month. So now that you are joining the ranks of the informed, perhaps you will make this a priority issue? You seem so adamant in rectifying the wrongs.
Do I think that CX would fire some more pilots, yes they will. They are so frustrated with the current situation, but haven't a clue what to do. Everytime their hands are tied, it is like poking the dog with a sharp stick. It bites back.
I think the real turning point will be the move to onshoring. Based labour laws are very specific and the courts have no qualms about enforcing them. Wrongful dismisal comes with a real price.
So, no gentlemen, I have no interest in contract compliance nor do many of my colleagues. As I have said on many occasions, many talk a great line when they are anonymous, yet turn and run when the chips are down.
Instead, why don't you focus your efforts on returning the 13th month to the based pilots.
Cheers!
No ACMS, you are wrong. Our salary did not change to accommodate the lack of the 13th month. So now that you are joining the ranks of the informed, perhaps you will make this a priority issue? You seem so adamant in rectifying the wrongs.
Do I think that CX would fire some more pilots, yes they will. They are so frustrated with the current situation, but haven't a clue what to do. Everytime their hands are tied, it is like poking the dog with a sharp stick. It bites back.
I think the real turning point will be the move to onshoring. Based labour laws are very specific and the courts have no qualms about enforcing them. Wrongful dismisal comes with a real price.
So, no gentlemen, I have no interest in contract compliance nor do many of my colleagues. As I have said on many occasions, many talk a great line when they are anonymous, yet turn and run when the chips are down.
Instead, why don't you focus your efforts on returning the 13th month to the based pilots.
Cheers!
NC,
I don't usually have any problems with anything you say but this
" I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008). "
is totally wrong. The more people that practice unofficial contract compliance, the more the pressure will build up quickly. Give CX time to train more crews and get their act together the less effect it will have. Unofficial CC means that talks are still an option.
Your statement seems to intend to make the present GC as ineffective as possible.
Thanks!!
I don't usually have any problems with anything you say but this
" I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008). "
is totally wrong. The more people that practice unofficial contract compliance, the more the pressure will build up quickly. Give CX time to train more crews and get their act together the less effect it will have. Unofficial CC means that talks are still an option.
Your statement seems to intend to make the present GC as ineffective as possible.
Thanks!!
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B Scale C&T
Without giving away too much anonymity, I was one of the original B Scalers of '93. I have years of military check and training and as a professional pilot feel the need to advance my career. However, as one of the original B Scalers, I will never advance my career professionally within Cathay. Why any B Scaler would ever join the C&T department is beyond me. Not only are B Scalers offering their services at a reduced price, they are now offering their C&T services at an even lower price. Why would you take time from your family to write ERAS, have a G day limited roster and put up with extra C&T meetings to earn less than an A Scale line Captain? Please don't come up with the "I'm a professional", "Want to give something back" routine. Want to give something back? Donate your time to the Air Cadets, they would love to hear from you. Want to be a professional? Let the S/O program the box if it's your sector. Teach him/her something you've learned over the years.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.
Westcoast: That's why I said correct me if I'm wrong bud.
I wasn't sure of the position of US based A scale salaries BUT I do know for a FACT that Oz based B scale salaries were adjusted up by 1/12 th to allow for the 13th month loss. This happened about 5 to 6 years ago if I remember correctly. Maybe NC could confirm this?
Anyway there is a lot more at stake than giving Based crew their 13th month, that's only 1 of a lot of issues.
I wasn't sure of the position of US based A scale salaries BUT I do know for a FACT that Oz based B scale salaries were adjusted up by 1/12 th to allow for the 13th month loss. This happened about 5 to 6 years ago if I remember correctly. Maybe NC could confirm this?
Anyway there is a lot more at stake than giving Based crew their 13th month, that's only 1 of a lot of issues.
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Without giving away too much anonymity, I was one of the original B Scalers of '93. I have years of military check and training and as a professional pilot feel the need to advance my career. However, as one of the original B
Well said guy.
And about CC, it begins when you get hired at a company. I don't care where you work, I don't care where you live. It is simple math people.
If you don't defend your contract from day one, how do you expect to hold on to it? Any work you do above and beyond the call of duty hurts you and your fellow collegues. It is that simple.
If you need the Union to tell you that you have to start contract compliance you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You think UPS guys are now answering their phone on their days off in case the company needs "their help". You think they are coming in on their days off to test out the new RT/PC in the sim FOR FREE! ...blood and brains but still ...
Do you sometimes feel like you are in a twilight-zone episode? If you do, you will see me standing next to you with a bewildered look on my face...
Know your contract - Period
Scalers, I will never advance my career professionally within Cathay. Why any B Scaler would ever join the C&T department is beyond me. Not only are B Scalers offering their services at a reduced price, they are now offering their C&T services at an even lower price. Why would you take time from your family to write ERAS, have a G day limited roster and put up with extra C&T meetings to earn less than an A Scale line Captain? Please don't come up with the "I'm a professional", "Want to give something back" routine. Want to give something back? Donate your time to the Air Cadets, they would love to hear from you. Want to be a professional? Let the S/O program the box if it's your sector. Teach him/her something you've learned over the years.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.
In my view CC is the way to go, especially when it involves voluntary duties. I was a commuter for a few years, and in the name of contract compliance lost time with my family only to watch some other guy take the pieces of silver. I would do it again because it was the right thing to do. I just wish others would look beyond themselves.
Gotta go.
And about CC, it begins when you get hired at a company. I don't care where you work, I don't care where you live. It is simple math people.
If you don't defend your contract from day one, how do you expect to hold on to it? Any work you do above and beyond the call of duty hurts you and your fellow collegues. It is that simple.
If you need the Union to tell you that you have to start contract compliance you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You think UPS guys are now answering their phone on their days off in case the company needs "their help". You think they are coming in on their days off to test out the new RT/PC in the sim FOR FREE! ...blood and brains but still ...
Do you sometimes feel like you are in a twilight-zone episode? If you do, you will see me standing next to you with a bewildered look on my face...
Know your contract - Period
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BusyB
I didn't make the present GC ineffective - it just is! What have the GC achieved in the last 18months? A revote on RP07 when it didn't go the way the GC wanted it, and CoS08. Like 1993, 1994, 1999 and 2001, CX management is just imposing(CoS08) what they want after appearing to give their position an air of 'legitimacy' after 'appearing' to negotiate.
BusyB its not a personal attack - I was no more effective on the GC than I am now off it. The AOA executive thinks it is smarter and wiser than the membership and will continue to ignore the majority wishes; the majority of the membership and the majority of the GC. The AOA executive think they are doing what is best for their membership....but that is not their decision to make. The AOA is supposed to be a democracy. It is time it started acting like one.
BusyB its not a personal attack - I was no more effective on the GC than I am now off it. The AOA executive thinks it is smarter and wiser than the membership and will continue to ignore the majority wishes; the majority of the membership and the majority of the GC. The AOA executive think they are doing what is best for their membership....but that is not their decision to make. The AOA is supposed to be a democracy. It is time it started acting like one.
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Have you been drinking?
NC, you usually make alot of sense. I cannot see any valid reason whatsoever to delay CC. Personally, I have been maintaining CC from day one through good times and bad. Why would one do anything different? I have never needed the AOA for personal direction re CC. Are people so stupid as to wait for the AOA to ring a bell?
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BusyB, WNC
BusyB,
seems my idea is 'controversial';-) It was seriously considered in 2000 but majority rules (mostly).
WNC, sorry, not drinking. Some of my ideas are obviously 'out there'!
seems my idea is 'controversial';-) It was seriously considered in 2000 but majority rules (mostly).
WNC, sorry, not drinking. Some of my ideas are obviously 'out there'!
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NC, rarely do I disagree with your (even out there) ideas, but I'm with the others on CC now.
Helping them now is like accepting a roster change that helps you get home earlier and helps them out of a hole today, helping them defer a particular mess to tomorrow's crew.
Hey, what do I know?!
Helping them now is like accepting a roster change that helps you get home earlier and helps them out of a hole today, helping them defer a particular mess to tomorrow's crew.
Hey, what do I know?!
Thread Starter
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Five Green
However if I was in management I would then hire direct entry trainers on the grounds that I cannot fill the position from within.
Maybe you're right... maybe that's what management would have done. But they would have had to weigh the costs of doing so first. From a financial perspective, they might have considered it cheaper to just offer a better deal to the boys from within (A-scale?). From an industrial perspective, I highly doubt that the company would be silly enough to re-visit the mistakes of the past, and start another ASL. So on second thought, I don't agree with you.
So we actually need the training roster full of AOA members so that we can bring some reality in to the training system. It is possible to maintain your morals and be a trainer some have managed it !!!
From a moral perspective... I wonder how one sleeps at night, knowing full well that they are responsible to a large extent for the imposition of COS08? It's a war... you can't fight for both sides!
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Contract Compliance
NC raises an interesting point......
I know this is not a popular idea but I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008).
I think NC is proposing taking CC to another level. CC would be a bargaining chip up for sale. The GC would turn compliance on and off and hope to see a marked resultant change in OTP/crewing. NR would then have to decide what price he will pay for such compliance.
The advantages would be, CC would be short lived, a week perhaps. I noticed in 2001 MSS was most effective in the first few days and then guys lost interest as the "policing" of compliance started to be divisive amongst the Pilot Body and the Company's Countermeasures started to bite (interviews in the Headland post-landing anyone?). Further it would be interesting to publish the dates when CC is on or off and see if the travelling public adjusted it's travel plans.
The disadvantages are that CC may make no difference to the operation and NR decides he can live with it.... bluff is called... Guys like WNC, who have been in CC "from day one" will find it difficult to turn on the co-operation. Equally, should an agreement be reached with NR he will have paid for your co-operation and will expect it... again WNC would struggle here...
WNC; if you have been in CC since day one... why did you join CX.. and how many aircraft have delayed or grounded...??
I know this is not a popular idea but I truly believe that we should all be as helpful as suits you until directed otherwise(late 2008).
I think NC is proposing taking CC to another level. CC would be a bargaining chip up for sale. The GC would turn compliance on and off and hope to see a marked resultant change in OTP/crewing. NR would then have to decide what price he will pay for such compliance.
The advantages would be, CC would be short lived, a week perhaps. I noticed in 2001 MSS was most effective in the first few days and then guys lost interest as the "policing" of compliance started to be divisive amongst the Pilot Body and the Company's Countermeasures started to bite (interviews in the Headland post-landing anyone?). Further it would be interesting to publish the dates when CC is on or off and see if the travelling public adjusted it's travel plans.
The disadvantages are that CC may make no difference to the operation and NR decides he can live with it.... bluff is called... Guys like WNC, who have been in CC "from day one" will find it difficult to turn on the co-operation. Equally, should an agreement be reached with NR he will have paid for your co-operation and will expect it... again WNC would struggle here...
WNC; if you have been in CC since day one... why did you join CX.. and how many aircraft have delayed or grounded...??
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There is much fuss surrounding CC but I think you will find in most airlines pilots will only go as far as what the contract dictates, ie CC is a case of operations normal. I get the impression that CX has survived on good will for many many years.
Last edited by EXEZY; 8th Jan 2008 at 03:44.
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There is much fuss surrounding CC but I think you will find in most airlines pilots will only go as far as what the contract dictates, ie CC is a case of operations normal.
It should NOT be, bend over backwards, then if negotiation fails, work within the contract!!!!
Has the CX pilot body really been taking it up the arse that long?
MAX
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Yep...........And a few decide to "help themselves" by working G days and taking training postions.
90% of the expats worry about Me , Myself and I.
No camaraderie here, that's why it is so easy for the company to divide and conquer the union and rule the rest by fear and intimidation.