Seniority List - What & Why
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No smoke without fire
It may be fishing but there is also no smoke without fire. I am a sad git with nothing better to do today due to the roster so I'll respond.
The financial mechanism of KA's transfer to be fully in the CX fold has nothing to do with it, i.e. bought, merged etc. Try looking at European law on the subject and the UK legistlation on TUPE (Google it up). You may be surprised by what you see, putting employees at the bottom of the seniority is illegal.
There is also the small problem of retaining 400+ pilots if they do try insulting them in that way and/or condemning them to fly into China forever.
I can only see benefits for all in combining the seniority lists. I cannot see how it will effect anyone's command or other prospects given that the overall fleet will be bigger.
Discuss.
The financial mechanism of KA's transfer to be fully in the CX fold has nothing to do with it, i.e. bought, merged etc. Try looking at European law on the subject and the UK legistlation on TUPE (Google it up). You may be surprised by what you see, putting employees at the bottom of the seniority is illegal.
There is also the small problem of retaining 400+ pilots if they do try insulting them in that way and/or condemning them to fly into China forever.
I can only see benefits for all in combining the seniority lists. I cannot see how it will effect anyone's command or other prospects given that the overall fleet will be bigger.
Discuss.
Jerry, Sorry you gave up fishing. I was quite enjoying the spectacle.
Yes, there are a number of successful seniority mergers. Check out ANZ for one. They protect bidding rights for each airline in conjoined lists whilst only people that join after that date are totally free to bid as their seniority grows.
Merry Xmas to all ish and fishermen.
Yes, there are a number of successful seniority mergers. Check out ANZ for one. They protect bidding rights for each airline in conjoined lists whilst only people that join after that date are totally free to bid as their seniority grows.
Merry Xmas to all ish and fishermen.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Lets not forget what this thread is all about..Having a seniority list at CX that actually reflects the true picture with the correct numbers etc..Leave the KA stuff aside..If our numbers are linked to our training files as DNH says and this leads to supposed difficulty in updating there system then lets see them change that. Any simple speadsheet program can add and subtract correctly and reflect the correct numbers. I guess they just dont want us to know how many (or in this case how few) pilots we really have ie 2156 actually meens 1950?? Lets stop worrying about a KA merger to the list and get something done about it..
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And one wonders why,how etc.
Self inflicted comes to mind.
Management are probably watching this debate and laughing ther socks off.Divide and rule.
More seniority anyone?
Self inflicted comes to mind.
Management are probably watching this debate and laughing ther socks off.Divide and rule.
More seniority anyone?
Join Date: Oct 2006
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The past and the future
CX have had around 40 pilots retire per year for the last few years. I may be mistaken but I thought computer technology was improving and more able to take account of unexpected 'departures'. So if you wish to believe that it is too complicated for CX to deal with changing seniority numbers that is up to you. They have been dealing with it very well for the last 15 years at least!
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Fly747,
I won't speculate on the legal aspect, just state the fact that it happens in NAM all the time.
And just what was their future holding for them before CX came around ?
If some KA pilot would like to take a base outside of HKG and he's been longer in CX than me (not that this is about me) don't you think that would affect me. Unless all KA pilots stay in HKG, where the KA fleet is based, I think it will have a huge impact on CX pilots.
This is why a fencing agreement, protection on fleet, seat and base is the reasonable way to solve a merger. Ka pilots will still retain seniority on the own equipment etc. and CX retains seniority on theirs. You bid to the "other" companys equipment, base, seat, whatever it will be with less seniority.
It leaves no one without the same options as before the merger. And it leaves everybody with new options, but at the bottom of the list.
Cider30
Try looking at European law on the subject and the UK legistlation on TUPE (Google it up). You may be surprised by what you see, putting employees at the bottom of the seniority is illegal.
There is also the small problem of retaining 400+ pilots if they do try insulting them in that way and/or condemning them to fly into China forever.
I can only see benefits for all in combining the seniority lists. I cannot see how it will effect anyone's command or other prospects given that the overall fleet will be bigger.
This is why a fencing agreement, protection on fleet, seat and base is the reasonable way to solve a merger. Ka pilots will still retain seniority on the own equipment etc. and CX retains seniority on theirs. You bid to the "other" companys equipment, base, seat, whatever it will be with less seniority.
It leaves no one without the same options as before the merger. And it leaves everybody with new options, but at the bottom of the list.
Cider30
Last edited by Cider30; 25th Dec 2007 at 22:52. Reason: spelling
Exactly Cider.
I will NEVER ACCEPT ANY KA PILOT taking a seniority number in front of me, EVER.
However they should have their own progression in KA protected.
But they can forget getting Staff Travel ( on CX ) and Basing opportunities ( in CX ) ahead of CX Pilot's.
Sorry, but if I wanted to join KA I would have.
I joined CX a long long time ago and don't see why I should lose out on this just because we bought KA a few months back.
I will NEVER ACCEPT ANY KA PILOT taking a seniority number in front of me, EVER.
However they should have their own progression in KA protected.
But they can forget getting Staff Travel ( on CX ) and Basing opportunities ( in CX ) ahead of CX Pilot's.
Sorry, but if I wanted to join KA I would have.
I joined CX a long long time ago and don't see why I should lose out on this just because we bought KA a few months back.
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I will NEVER ACCEPT ANY KA PILOT taking a seniority number in front of me, EVER.
Frankly, I reckon KA pilots are better off seperate. We have a good professional crew. No need to dilute it from your end.
Negotiations have been pleasing for both sides- with the DPA considered reasonable and workable compared to the AOA. Our next round of talks is the mutual interest of expansion. With CX pilots mumbling contract compliance and other irresponsible activities; we may get a fair chunk of it !
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Who is WE?
ACMS so "we" bought KA, who is we? You are just an employee same as the KA pilots. CX already owned a good chunk of KA. It was just a few very rich men juggling the chips around a bit.
If you are never going to have a KA pilot ahead of you then where are you going?
Like And Then alludes to I think KA are just about to do rather well out of it.
A happy and interesting New Year to all.
If you are never going to have a KA pilot ahead of you then where are you going?
Like And Then alludes to I think KA are just about to do rather well out of it.
A happy and interesting New Year to all.
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The enemy is not the KA pilot but CX management. The last thing I need is strife in the cockpit and I for one will not accept it from anyone!
KA brothers come on over and lets fight together against this selfish and irresponsible management.
KA brothers come on over and lets fight together against this selfish and irresponsible management.
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The enemy is not the KA pilot but CX management.
KA pilots could be better served staying seperate. Undercutting CX pilots with a lower cost base ( KA B Scale ) and a 'relatively' quickly expandable pilot group; small scale efficiencies too etc.
A poor deal on integration will result in another heavy round of pilot departures. I can't see any benefit to CX management except by diluting the DPA- and if the next six months brings new found efficiencies they may not really want that anyway.
I'm happy seperate unless mature sentiment emerges from the CX pilot group.
Last edited by And Then; 29th Dec 2007 at 02:47.
what have you ever done?
What a load of bollocks you KA Pilot's talk.
shaking my head...............
Unbelievable, next you'll want to fly to Oz
Last edited by ACMS; 29th Dec 2007 at 07:50.
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Unbelievable, next you'll want to fly to Oz
What I don't like about you and your ilk is that the only time you will get a pair of balls is if you can level it at another pilot group. Bully tactics from a comfort zone- perhaps like your training set up I hear so much moaning about.
Your hopes, dreams, ambitions, financial security is CX. Your comfort zone in fact. That's your vulnerability. And a naive arrogance.
KA pilots will continue to walk if any situation or scenario untenable. And if CX wanted that to happen they wouldn't have offered the near 20% payrise.
Tidy up your attitude friend.
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Integration and cost base
I have no idea if or when an integration will occur. But as of 1/4/08 KA pilots earn the same as CX pilots. If rumours of their improvements to education and LEP housing are true, then KA pilots will earn/cost more than CX pilots.
I know things at KA have been woeful and that is why you guys are all leaving and I take my hat off to you all. You have big balls and this is the ONLY reason you are getting somewhere.
At CX I have been a member of the AOA for 14+ years through thick and thin, I supported the 49ers financially as long as I could and more. I will continue to encourage my fellow Pilot's to join OUR Union for the betterment of our Profession. I know our Union is weak in a lot of areas and that's because of the slack people that wont join thinning our numbers to a joke level. This I have to accept as a reality.
But don't tell me I don't have any balls buddy, if we had a strong solid Union then I'll be among the first to do what the majority vote for, no doubt about that.
This is not the first Airline Union I've been a part of, I was in the Oz 89 dispute and lost my job, and I didn't run back and scab. So don't tell me I have no balls.
As much as I respect your postion why should I be happy to allow someone from an Airline Cathay/Swire bought to attain a seniority number ahead of me? What planet do you think I come from? How could I react any other way to a loss of bidding and staff travel rights?
So if we didn't buy you then what happened exactly? do enlighten me.
And It's not like I don't want you guys to join our list, I hope you do. But why should I lose out? Even if it is only 100 or so numbers, it's still a lot.
Seems to me KA Pilot's have a LOT more to gain than CX Pilot's
What I don't like about you and your ilk is that the only time you will get a pair of balls is if you can level it at another pilot group.
But don't tell me I don't have any balls buddy, if we had a strong solid Union then I'll be among the first to do what the majority vote for, no doubt about that.
This is not the first Airline Union I've been a part of, I was in the Oz 89 dispute and lost my job, and I didn't run back and scab. So don't tell me I have no balls.
As much as I respect your postion why should I be happy to allow someone from an Airline Cathay/Swire bought to attain a seniority number ahead of me? What planet do you think I come from? How could I react any other way to a loss of bidding and staff travel rights?
So if we didn't buy you then what happened exactly? do enlighten me.
And It's not like I don't want you guys to join our list, I hope you do. But why should I lose out? Even if it is only 100 or so numbers, it's still a lot.
Seems to me KA Pilot's have a LOT more to gain than CX Pilot's
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Numero Crunchero: I have no idea if or when an integration will occur. But as of 1/4/08 KA pilots earn the same as CX pilots. If rumours of their improvements to education and LEP housing are true, then KA pilots will earn/cost more than CX pilots.
But seriously. When you consider all the factors and the liklihood of overtime on a short haul line. I am told there is still disparity ( acknowledged by CX management ) in favour of CX pilots. The gap has closed granted.
This without considering I have a B Scale A330 Captain's package. As do the bulk of my colleagues. Whereas you NC, have an A scale A330 package- and what % of your colleagues do ?